The parody shirt the NSA doesn’t want you to wear | Hacker News Reader

The parody shirt the NSA doesn’t want you to wear

salon.com

122 pointstchalla54 comments

Hmm, it appears to me that the NSA misquoted the law in that article when they sent a message to The Daily Dot.

From http://www.intelligence.senate.gov/nsaact1959.htm :

Sec. 15. (a) No person may, except with the written permission of the Director of the National Security Agency, knowingly use the words 'National Security Agency', the initials 'NSA', the seal of the National Security Agency, or any colorable imitation of such words, initials, or seal in connection with any merchandise, impersonation, solicitation, or commercial activity in a manner reasonably calculated to convey the impression that such use is approved, endorsed, or authorized by the National Security Agency.

(emphasis mine)

That changes things quite a bit. No reasonable person would believe the NSA authorized this.

I dunno. "The only part of the government that actually listens" sounds pretty positive.....

Does "Peeping while you're sleeping" sound like something the NSA would have authorized?

Well, they do it, and have publically admitted to it. So they internally authorized it =P

It definitely sounds like something they would authorise. Just not something they would advertise ;)

Seems unconstitutional to me. You can commercially publish topless photos of actresses vacationing on a private beach, and that's protected by the first amendment. If the argument is trademark infringement then why a special law?

The point is fraud. You can publish photos, if you're not pretending to be that person. Similarly, you can use trademarks to refer to whoever owns them, but you can't claim that you are the person/company it refers to.

What idiot could be so confused as to believe that this t-shirt is really being sold by the NSA, or that the seller is claiming to be the NSA, instead of as a parody?

In a world where this: http://i.imgur.com/aUOAv.jpg is not parody, it has become increasingly harder to get confuse

Hell, if you would take somebody from 1985 and transplant them to now, they would probably think the mainstream news was pure satire.

I still don't think there is any doubt about the t-shirt in question. I upvoted you for that poster though, wow. It's like something a graphic artist would submit knowing it would be rejected. Its imagery is right out of dystopian sci-fi. Is it real?

Everyone in this thread is missing the point. This T-shirt is obviously a political statement, and the NSA is using the law to suppress it. This is clearly a freedom of speech issue.

Whether US law permits this type of dissent suppression is only ancillary. If your law says that this type of protest is forbidden, you have a big problem! Americans always get stuck on "this is actually illegal" when having a discussion about rights. Your constitution is pretty clear about this issue, and a reasonable interpretation of human rights/freedom of expression is crystal clear. This shirt is a political expression, and preventing it from being sold is denial of the right to protest.

Zazzle fears the cost of going to court, even if it looks like a certain win.

That's a general problem with the US legal system, and would be worth protesting about more than any NSA scandal combined.

Discrimination of the poor from access to justice.

This is the problem with crowdservices. Though it actually can be a strength if they decide to fight these types of things.

"That changes things quite a bit. No reasonable person would believe the NSA authorized this. "

Except that's not what the NSA would have to prove. The linked law is actually quite clear here. It says " in a manner reasonably calculated to convey the impression".

They would not have to prove a reasonable person would believe the NSA authorized it, they only have to prove that the person making the shirt used the seal "in a manner reasonably calculated to convey the impression that such use is approved". ISTM the whole purpose of the shirt and it's parody is to convey the impression that such use was approved. The fact that it's a parody does not change that, it only changes whether the receiver is likely to view it as a joke.

In short, I don't believe a court would use a standard based on how the receiver viewed it, but instead how the shirt creator was trying to use the seal.

If they are trying to use it in parody, then they are trying to use it in parody, not to convey that such use is approved. In fact, by the fact that it is intended to be a joke, it is explicitly not trying to convey that such use is approved, unless the NSA is well known for producing comedy items for public consumption.

http://www.cafepress.com/mf/78962042/the-nsa_tshirt

I just ordered it. Done & Done.

Also, cafepress apparently doesn't make it clear until checkout but you can order with your Amazon account so you don't have to make a new account on cafepress. I don't like entering my CC info on a bunch of sites so I've been avoiding Cafepress until this T-shirt just made me cave in. Now I find out that I never needed to make a new account...

NSA asking for it to be taken off the site is probably the best thing that could happen for publicity.

I really want to wear this shirt while going through airport security the next time I visit the US :)

Actually, on second thought, I don't.

I used to wear a t-shirt with the TIA "Total Information Awareness" all-seeing eye logo on the front, and the slogan "Be A Good American. Don't Ask Questions." on the back, when I traveled. It was sometimes good for a few laughs with foreign border agents; but on the US side, never even so much as a smile. OTOH, I never got singled out for "extra screening" because of it (as far as I can tell); but that seems to be more common these days.

TBH, if I thought such a weak form of protest would really draw a response from TSA agents, I am pretty sure I would wear it. Maybe that's part of the reason I avoid flying these days.

Here's a link to the designers official shop. It has more things that just the shirt.

http://www.cafepress.com/libertymaniacs/10128143

> "... At any time that NSA is made aware that the NSA Seal is being used without our permission, we will take appropriate actions."

The NSA has no idea what "appropriate actions" means.

Of course they don't. That information is classified!

A non-story with a linkbait title.

Zazzle got scared of a design using the NSA logo. No proof whatsoever for NSA having been involved in this.

Their statement seems to confirm it though.

Their statement is a generic "you can't use our logo because of this law" (exactly what you'd expect from a government agency.) And their denied any involvement in this particular case (ditto.)

It is not protected under that law. Satire is most certainly allowed (and not just under First Amendment rights). The FBI tried to remove its seal from Wikipedia[0] and similarly miscited the appropriate law.

Sec. 15. (a) No person may, except with the written permission of the Director of the National Security Agency, knowingly use the words 'National Security Agency', the initials 'NSA', the seal of the National Security Agency, or any colorable imitation of such words, initials, or seal in connection with any merchandise, impersonation, solicitation, or commercial activity in a manner reasonably calculated to convey the impression that such use is approved, endorsed, or authorized by the National Security Agency.

It is that last bit that matters here.

[0] http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-20012575-93.html

Sure, that's an arguable defense, but it's not like they're wrong in what they said.

You have to go to court to say, "fair use!"

They omitted a large part of the law in their statement. You can't say "Endorsed by the NSA" on your product. You can say "The NSA Sucks." The use of the logo is allowed in the latter.

I want to point out that "fair use" or, even more generally, First Amendment rights, are not involved here.

The statement that the NSA issued, that no one is allowed to use the Seal without written consent, is strictly false.

Section 15.a states explicitly that you may not use the Seal "in a manner reasonably calculated to convey the impression that such use is approved, endorsed, or authorized by the National Security Agency."

This t-shirt does not give you the impression that such use is approved, endorsed, or authorized by the National Security Agency. Fair use, parody, satire, doesn't matter.

I linked the CNET article because the FBI did the same thing a few years back:

"While we appreciate your desire to revise the statute to reflect your expansive vision of it, the fact is that we must work with the actual language of the statute, not the aspirational version of Section 701 that you forwarded to us," Mike Godwin, general counsel for Wikimedia Foundation, the nonprofit company that runs Wikipedia, wrote the FBI in response.

I had the same exact thing happen to me with Zazzle back in June when I created two t-shirt designs using the EFF parody logo. I had a bit of back-and-forth with the Zazzle reps who just kept sending me canned responses.

Luckily I was able to get the shirt shipped to me before they yanked it: http://imgur.com/a/OOvwY#0

Is that logo screened on there crooked?

I like this parody logo more http://images.intomobile.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/nsa-...

The NSA's statement is really pretty chilling when you think about it. The irony here is that "the government doesn't want you to wear this" is a great advertising message and the NSA in their statement has helped that along a great deal.

The NSA is more than happy at the thought of people giving up for a t-shirt and becoming completely complacent with the idea of them listening and watching everything you are doing.

If a t-shirt is your idea of protesting, well it's no wonder we have the TSA and the NSA.

The t-shirt is a conversation starter, not a protest. Furthermore, he's using it to crowd-fund his defence. You can support it here:

http://www.tfund.com/nsashirt

Given the current situation, how can this usage not be covered by free speech?

That's what I thought, too. Using "The NSA" in the way the shirt does is making a political statement, which is protected by the USA's First Amendment. It's one of the few rights that the USA Supreme Court has defended zealously.

Supposing that "The NSA" is some kind of "intellectual property", using the phrase as that tee shirt does is almost certainly fair use. This is a lot less certain, as you'd have to go to court, spend lots of money, and admit to infringing to plead fair use, so it's probably not worth the effort.

Zazzle took down almost every parody shirt I've ever made - even ones with custom artwork.

For example I made a "Yo Bama Bama" shirt that had custom art of Obama wearing a Yo Gabba Gabba hat with various phrases... that was taken down.

Custom artwork of video game characters saying stupid things... always taken down. Anything that referenced some sci-fi movie or TV show was always taken down. I'm surprised the NSA even had to complain. Zazzle preemptively stifles free speech when it's obvious it's a parody before anyone complains. Zazzle is so bad about this - I don't use them for anything anymore.

Well, technically you have no right to or expectation of free speech on Zazzle. I'm sure it's in Zazzle's terms of service that they can reject any product submitted to the site for any reason. I don't like, but it's their site, they can do that if they want.

They're probably just being overly risk averse to try and avoid lawsuits.

What, you can't use the letters NSA? You must be joking.

There's an ellipsis at the start of that, here's what the whole text looks like:

> SEC. 15. ø50 U.S.C. 3613¿ (a) No person may, except with the written permission of the Director of the National Security Agency, knowingly use the words ‘‘National Security Agency’’, the initials ‘‘NSA’’, the seal of the National Security Agency, or any colorable imitation of such words, initials, or seal in connection with any merchandise, impersonation, solicitation, or commercial activity in a manner reasonably calculated to convey the impression that such use is approved, endorsed, or authorized by the National Security Agency

>... in a manner reasonably calculated to convey that such use is approved, endorsed, or authorized by the National Security Agency.

Hmm.

Then it doesn't relate to this product then. In no way would anyone reasonably think that such a parody is endorsed, approved or authorized by the NSA.

NSA is on a power trip. They've changed even the relevance of the word "relevant", in their justification for spying on everyone. They'll be using any justification to further their goals, no matter how crazy it sounds. They only only a few will call their bluff, and are using it as scare tactic.

Wrong part of the government out of control. As someone else pointed out, Zazzle is most likely more scared of the lawsuit that may or may not come from this.

If the NSA had an issue with it, CafePress wouldn't be selling the same shirt.

Not sure about trademark law, but copyright law in the US has fair use provisions under which this would definitely fall (parody). (Edit: I guess maybe the gov's laws about the NSA in particular supersede this?)

Federal government entities cannot copyright, everything they produce is public domain. They can hold trademark, but usually do not since they are not trading anything. USPS is a rare exception. NSA of couse has no goods or services.

Thus the need for a specific law, as cited, to act in stead of the more familiar protections. Which law, it must be said, seems quite reasonably narrow, and should allow parody amongst other uses.

The same is true of the Presidential Seal, under 18 USC 713 of the United States Code.

The NSA might be a little too aggressive here (satire is protected speech under the first amendment of the U.S. Constitution), but I can understand the desire to prohibit use of U.S. agency seals to falsely represent the offices to which they're attached. This is not the same as someone using the FedEx or the Starbucks logo . . .

i'm probably going to print this on a t-shirt anyway just for fun...

Wondering what will happen when trying to enter USA while wearing that shirt - they will probably investigate my "resource processing system's output port"

Just call it the National Ststorm Agency. Or something.

Love the design of that logo.

Logo looks like a near-copy paste. Reprint with just the letters ?

"Peeping While You're Sleeping" ? The text puts it firmly in the realm of parody.

> Public Law 86-36, which states that it is not permitted for “…any person to use the initials ‘NSA,’ the words ‘National Security Agency’.

So does this mean using the acronym 'NSA' and the words ‘National Security Agency’ on the web without their written consent counts as a felony when they pick you up? Will they apply additional 10 years to imprisonment statement? Making room for the scapegoat?

Reply on news.ycombinator.com