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Comment by mrchuckmills2 | Hacker News Reader

> I’m sure that no one has ever said something that stupid out loud

You haven't been around much, have you?

I have been fortunate to be surrounded by people who are generally intelligent and progressive that believe engineers should be part of the entire lifecycle.

Would you care to share your experience with us?

It's rarely that blatant. Most people use more covert methods to keep engineers out of the lifecycle. It can be frustrating because most of these statements can be valid when uttered under different circumstances.

- "Only "power users" will use that." Sometimes this one's true, but some people will say this about any idea engineers come up with.

- "Let's see what someone in product thinks." The key thing you have to pay attention to here is the subtext. If it's "Let's keep product people in the loop", that's good. If it's "Your idea is invalid because you don't have the title 'Product Manager'", then you have a problem.

- "I understand you don't want to complicate the code, but our customers don't care about that." This one's a minefield. It puts you in a place where you have to either make a poor technical decision, or get accused of not caring about the customer.

But by far the most common tactic is merely excluding engineers from important meetings, and only bringing them in when they need someone to write the code.

Hey j_baker thanks for sharing your perspective. The beauty and curse of code is that it's hard to have subtext that isn't explicit, like in your example. Again if "Let's see what product thinks" has the negative connotation you allude to, in my mind that is a horribly run company. We are still very small (6 ppl) so I want everyone to think like product managers and CEOs - as long as they fulfill their core responsibilities. It gets a little harder bc sometimes, engineers will be vetoed, not because they don't have great ideas, but ultimately, there is some negotiation between a great product/experience and something sellable or to work with a time constraint.

I personally think it is ASININE not to involve my engineers in the decision process, bc they might be able to optimize my business process, or even my thoughts as a product owner. I am a sales and marketing guy, that desperately wants to become a good product manager. The only way I can do that is by learning from others' approaches. If you'd like to continue the dialogue feel free to email me at ben@projectsherpa.com

Cheers,

Ben CoFounder ProjectSherpa ben@projectsherpa.com

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