Stripe launches German beta
stripe.com
stripe.com
edit : clarity
Stripe.com says Charges made in a currency for which you haven't connected a bank account will be converted to your default currency. A 2% fee applies for currency conversion, and all fees are calculated in the currency we transfer to you.
So you can avoid it by having an USD / EUR account. Or you have to pay this 2% fee. I will add a note to the page.
Given that we're quite similar to Germany except for being a bit more focussed on international trade, we might have been a test run for German deployment though.
Looks like we'll be integrating in Stripe into our eCommerce system for our clients once we get into the BETA. :)
Stripe AU supports AMEX and USD charges, right?
USD charging is definitely essential for SaaS selling to the US.
Stripe in Australia makes me very happy though, and I may have gone down that route for the brand alone if I hadn't already integrated Braintree into my app (with a nice library, to boot).
For most SaaS/e-product models "direct debit" is not an option because a customer can do a refund without a reason for at least 6 weeks. It also has no CVV2, so you can just abuse some charity bank details for a direct debit purchase. Good luck dealing with fraud.
It's not like online retail isn't a huge business here, and credit cards are the easiest payment method available, due to the incredibly restrictive nature of German banks.
A lot of startups here have been screaming for this day.
I much prefer debit, as it makes it much easier for me to get my money back if the seller doesn't deliver.
Setting up Direct Debits, at least the UK version, it's not "a bit longer" for your money to arrive, it's confirmation several days later vs. within seconds.
For ongoing payments like subscriptions this probably isn't a huge deal, but for one-off payments it makes less sense.
I much prefer debit, as it makes it much easier for me to get my money back if the seller doesn't deliver.
Unfortunately from the seller's point of view, that also means it's much easier for someone to claim to be a customer, get hold of your e-book/music/software/whatever, and then reverse the payment. There are procedures for disputing chargebacks on credit cards, but with Direct Debit the guarantee is basically that banks will reverse first and ask questions later, and the time limits for doing so are much longer (if there are any at all).
Again, this is less of a problem for ongoing payments for utility bills or something like SaaS where you can just cut off access if they stop paying, but for things like one-time downloads it's a huge risk for the merchant.
If I remember correctly, the e-commerce systems can check if the account is valid, and as most have overdraft and thus the responsibility for getting the money is transferred to the client's credit institute, there's little risk.
Yes, for downloads this can be a hassle, but it's not like this is the only payment option used by people, so it's not a big bother if direct debit isn't offered in this case or you're going through an intermediate solution like e.g. paypal. I think most people would prefer alternative solutions for one-time payments anyway, i.e. if they don't think they'll be a regular customer.
Not sure how the recent SEPA regulations will affect this...
A credit card can be cancelled and purchases disputed.
The problem that credit cards have in Germany is that they have to compete with ELV (and soon SEPA Direct Debit, I suspect), which from a consumer's perspective (though not from a seller's) is the superior payment system (ease of chargebacks, plus the up to 150 Euro that you may have to eat if your credit card details are stolen, plus the historical tendency of the courts to side with banks over consumers in the case of card theft [2]).
[1] http://www.bundesbank.de/Redaktion/EN/Downloads/Publications...
[2] The law has recently been changed to no longer make a prima facie assumption that you mishandled your PIN if your card was used fraudulently, but you may still have a lot of hassle to go through.
I'm certain they hate the notion of credit too which has long been attributed to their post-war mindset.
Are other European notions similarly disposed towards credit (and thus credit cards), too?
The problem is that the rest of the world standardizes on credit cards. You cannot book a hotel or a conference without it. This is probably the only reason, why germans adopt credit cards: International travel.
The reservation won't be guaranteed, that is, you have to be there before a certain hour for your guarantee to work. After that, if a customer walked in and asked for a room, sorry.
Now try renting a car in the US without a credit card.
Better? It's a debit card. Chip and Pin? Several other countries have it.
It may have smaller fees, still, some merchands only take it from a certain value.
If you feel guilty about being on the winning side of today's predatory, exploitative credit card system, by all means use a debit card instead.
And to those who constantly run a balance on their credit cards and never seem to get them paid off, you can always prove your intelligence by cutting the cards into little pieces and flushing them down the toilet. More here:
Look at it this way -- for 30 days, you have access to funds that the poor person doesn't. Interest or not, you have more financial latitude.
Also, people who automatically and fully pay off their cards every month tend also to be the sort of people who have most of their money in investments that yield reasonable interest returns (like equities), not zero-interest bank accounts. So for them, the saved money is kept in a worthwhile investment until the moment it's needed.
I personally think the difference between the financial condition of the rich and poor, and the choices each make, is terrible and unjust. But after I've empathized with the poor, I know which group I want to belong to.
So I called a TV station news department and told them about it. They called the rental service, who naturally enough said, "Oh, no, that's not true!" I explained to the reporter that asking wasn't going to work -- he needed to go to the airport and try to rent a car without a card, with a hidden camera. He did, the ruse worked, he was flatly refused on camera, and it was a big story.
So I like a simple life too, but the combination of having a 30-day float and being able to do certain kinds of transactions that require a card, have resulted in my having one -- one! -- credit card.
Interestingly my friend in Switzerland couldn't finance his car purchase. You either have to lease or buy the car in cash. Yes, full cash payment. For an American, that's baffling...our whole car industry is based off of credit (and perhaps quite indirectly related to it's demise.)
Most German credit cards are "not-revolving",i.e., at the end of the month the amount you spent with your credit card will be withdrawn automatically from your bank account. It is therefore much more like a debit card in concept than a credit card.
The only reason why credit cards are more used nowadays in Germany is because of their use in international online shopping (and when renting a car in the US, which is the reason why I had to get one).
Seen this way, we figured it made sense to bring the capabilities that US users have today to Germany as quickly as we could.
A really big difference here however is that for daily groceries people tend to pay in cash and for lower amounts they'll refuse use of a debit card, while in The Netherlands practically everyone pays with a debit card all the time.
It would be interesting to see per-country statistics.
Of course, when paying or order something online, you need to provide your shipping address anyways, so credit cards brings at least a benefit of possible dispute if anything goes wrong.
Then there is the fact that people who pay digitally tend to hold up the queue. Just plop down some cash and take the change, will ya. Gah.
It's the 21st century. I don't want to think about whether I should get 20 or 30 Euro from an ATM, let alone carry 100 Euro in my wallet. In fact, I find you reasoning quite weird: technology exists to make mundane and boring tasks unnecessary.
Even worse is this 'digital wallet' that is required in some busses, etc., where you have to precharge the chip with a certain amount of money.
Then there is the fact that people who pay digitally tend to hold up the queue. Just plop down some cash and take the change, will ya. Gah.
That's because the checkout process in Germany is not optimized for bank card payments. Try to go to a Dutch supermarket (e.g. Albert Heijn in city centers) and it's usually cash payers who are slowing down the queues. Thank god, they have counters these days where they only allow bank cards.
No thanks, anything that technically allows tracking will be tracked eventually, if not already. Why would I provide that information free of charge to anyone? I respect my privacy, and I'm glad that I live in a country where people are at least aware of the privacy issues.
Let's say that people's awareness of the privacy and need to protect private information is the only positive legacy from the memories of Gestapo and Stasi.
Agreed. But digitalization of society is not something that can be stopped. Just by posting here on Hackernews, you left plenty of traces that can be mined.
We should demand from our governments that laws are put into place so that our data is not only protected, but controlled by ourselves.
There's an old (Russian?) saying that goes like: "Pray to the God, but keep swimming to the coast!"
So? I am me. Like some web frameworks I am opinionated, and unlike them I am not made of sugar, able to carry luggage, and able to carry cash around.
> I don't want to think about whether I should get 20 or 30 Euro from an ATM, let alone carry 100 Euro in my wallet. In fact, I find you reasoning quite weird: technology exists to make mundane and boring tasks unnecessary.
That's good for you, but I don't have to really think about that much. Of course I always want to have a few tenners in my wallet, no thought required, I just do that when I pass by the bank. I also would have no problem with carrying 100€ in my wallet, since I tend to carry 1000€ worth of stuff in my DSLR bag anyway, which I take anywhere except shopping and places after dark (not because I'm afraid I might get robbed, but because I can't be bothered to carry around a flash/tripod). So another 100€ means nothing, and the real hassle of having your wallet stolen isn't really the cash, it's all the other stuff in it, no?
> In fact, I find you reasoning quite weird: technology exists to make mundane and boring tasks unnecessary.
First off, technology is made by "me" for "me", I don't exist for it. It's not my purpose to give a specific technology a reason to exist - if I don't need it, and neither do others, it can just go shrivel up and die when the reference counter hits zero.
Secondly, wildly varying technology exists for wildly varying reasons: to make live easier for yourself and/or everyone, and to make life harder for yourself and/or others; to exploit people, for escapism, and so on. What "mundane and boring task" do Farmville or heroin make unnecessary? How is it desirable to make the task of, say, mass murder or putting people in internment camps, easier?
Doing simple calculations in my head, or knowing that I'll be making a bigger purchase soonish isn't "boring and mundane" to me, neither is rain or carrying luggage, which I find rather sublime and fun respectively, at least to a degree (heavy rain every day, or weights attached to my shoes, wouldn't be fun).
Do you know the movie "Wall-E"? I could barely stand it for all the kitsch, but that stuff about the fat human blobs zipping around on trays seems slightly relevant. Walking is boring, eating is boring, defecating is boring, washing yourself is boring, taking care of friendships is boring... no wait, all that is in the brain of the beholder, and personally I think life is made up of little things, and the supposedly big things are for the most part just big delusions. Which seems to be confirmed by the fact that most people I see around seem kinda unhappy or hysterical in their happiness, and to never notice things like sparrows or clouds. I pity them, and I fully expect them to consider me "weird", with their digital watches and sneakers with lights in the heels.
> That's because the checkout process in Germany is not optimized for bank card payments.
Which is where I am, and which is also a place built above sea level, so that's where I'll stay :P Truth be told, the Netherlands aren't exactly the first thing that comes to my mind when I think of the opposite of hobbitdom. I'm not saying that to be mean or snarky, but because that's what I honestly think. Seeing how this is about the reasons for Germans not using credit cards, and how I am one, here's my opinion, arrogant as it is. To be honest, I expected downvotes instead of upvotes, I think I would deserve them... wouldn't make me change my opinion though. Many people are already quite lame and getting lamer by the month, and like George Carlin I'm over here with this weird mixture of popcorn and hatred.
> Thank god, they have counters these days where they only allow bank cards.
Yeah, thank God for wall-to-wall tracking of every single expense I make, which happens every single time, while negative effects of carrying cash around are rather hypothetical.
I think this is because historically, wire transfers between most banks in Germany have been easy and cheap for decades, while it is different in the US, as I understand it.
Interestingly, Citi has a nice web interface for person-to-person ACH transfers (direct deposit), but it's not widely used and I don't think most other banks have it.
It would be impractical to use this for most payments because the recipient has no indication that the transaction is actually going to take place until at least the next business day.
When individuals buy from merchants in the US, they almost always use a MasterCard or Visa (sometimes attached to a checking account, sometimes to a line of credit) via magnetic swipe or by typing the number. Individuals settle with each other individuals (tutoring, babysitting, reimbursing tickets, etc) using paper checks or cash.
I believe there are some startups targeting person-to-person payments, but most involve transaction fees and/or or creating an account with your banking details, neither of which anyone wants.
- Almost anyone that would be able to actually use a credit card online has a credit card
- Everyone i know dislikes credit cards, including me. They still have the correct stigma of paying with money you don't have and causing a housing crisis because of it; they're "american" and very "capitalist".
I believe that PayPal's new API is only available for american merchants.
Anyone knows how easy would it be for them to expand to Dubai for example?
Would you trust your financial data (= growth data, etc.) to a company like Paymill that's owned by a clone factory (i.e. the Samwers') or do you think that's being paranoid?
EDIT: I wasn't asking for downvotes, I was asking for rational comments, explanations, thoughts.
And let's stop with this clone thing. If we are a community striving for execution, we should not be so annoying when people simply take ideas from somebody else and start executing.
It's just that I'm not sure it's a good idea to give your business data to people whose main business model it is to look for the best ideas/markets/businesses and then to copy them.
To me, there seems to be a pretty obvious conflict of interest that might work against you.
At least with Paymill you are clear on what you get. We have seen their execution already.
Our plan is "nobody" :).
But hey, let me say I only looked into Paymill because you guys were not around.
However, I have lost faith in the ability of US-based companies using US-fiber and US datacenters to protect against NSA snooping.
I am not naive - I have no doubt that German fiber is monitored as well, but afaik LE could gain access to your servers and serve you a gag order - something they could not do over here.
So, my comment was in no way specific to Stripe - I don't trust Google or Apple either.
Having said that, in the particular domain of electronic payments, I think that meaningful privacy is (sadly) a mostly unattainable goal: it seems safe to assume that the card companies themselves collaborate with all kinds of surveillance. Given that everything ultimately becomes a transaction on those networks, what happens at the edges matters less.
Moral of the story is anyone anywhere can buy something from a US company using Stripe on their credit card.
Edit: Just read that its from the Samwers. Might be enough to wait for Stripe then.
But on the other side this means, that stripe is less secure?
The sign-up process is part of the product, and we treat it that way. Onerous paperwork is not an inevitability.
But the Problem is not Paymill, it are the acceptance company and many restrictions. I am not sure if stripe has an another way todo it in germany.
Nobody ever said that.
So... is this what I need to do to get into the beta? Or is there something else I need to do?
We pay by baking systems such as Ideal (in the netherlands).
However, closer to the point, Germans are known to use cash a lot, so it's interesting that Stripe launch there.
The countries that make up Europe are extremely diverse.