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Comment by sliverstorm | Hacker News Reader

What's done for cooling/heating? Does this require a pretty temperate environment, or is it relatively well sealed?

Vehicles leak like sieves unless you seal them up yourself, which could be a catastrophically bad idea if exhaust starts to find its way into the vehicle while it is running.

Aside from opening windows or bundling up and shivering, your cooling/heating options are either typical house HVAC appliances, or extending the functionality of the onboard heating and cooling and hoping that you bought a diesel, which are much more tolerant than gasoline engines of idling all day. Which brings me back to the risk of exhaust gasses when the passenger compartment is mostly sealed.

For electrical power to run appliance-type HVAC, you could use a small generator.

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You could install a webasto diesel fueled stand-heater.

They're cheap and you can plumb them right into the main tank, a bus would likely require several of them. If you insulate a vehicle besides exhaust fume collection you'll have to be very wary of condensation as well.

My experience is limited to converting a Fiat Ducato delivery van into a small RV:

http://pics.ww.com/v/jacques/cars/ducato/

On something the size of the bus in this article you could stuff the roof full of solar panels and install an inverter + a battery pack, then use that to drive a regular AC. A bit over the top maybe but with that much roof surface it is an interesting option.

Awesome conversion. Didn't expect the crowd here to get this excited about mobile living.

Myself and a few friends are working on slightly more 'extreme' motorhomes (based on military 6x6's), designed for unimproved roads and long-term travel.

We're all somewhat independently employed, so the transition to a mobile life is a no-brainer. Hope to see more people in our industry take advantage of their freedom, too!

Thanks!

Any link to your projects? 6x6 sounds interesting :)

Here's my friend's build thread. I'll start publishing info on my project in the next couple of months.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/expedition-vehicles/955676-ma...

I just spent at least 4 hours reading that thread (and subsequent pirate threads), totally enamored.

Super nice, thank you!

>For electrical power to run appliance-type HVAC, you could use a small generator.

Naw, man. You need a _big_ generator.

source: I also bought a bus.

Big is subjective. I have an RV I bought for ~$10K that I'm renovating to live in full time one day, and it has a 50A Onan gas generator, which I wouldn't call big. It can drive both AC units onboard at the same time.

That is 6kVA. I'd call it medium sized generator WRT RV's, and suggest you not spend your summers boondocking in the Southwest, or Gulf Coast.

Taking it to Burning Man. Tomorrow. I've budgeted for quite a bit of fuel.

Next year I plan on going solar, when time permits.

Oh god. I did that with mine right after I bought it. It was great, but it cost me (and our companions) so much money. $4k in fuel $2500 in tires.

What kind of Bus? Where are you starting out from?

98' Winnebago Adventurer. Chicago suburb. First burn ever (have been trying to go for years).

~2k miles, wow. That is a trek.

If you hit the Bonneville salt flats at night, you might find fire-dancing on the flats near the rest areas.

The rest areas in Nevada have fresh drinking water, so you can save some weight by waiting to fill your water tanks.

Shoot me an email electrodynatronic von gmail if you like. I might have a few more tips if you're interested.

-Good luck

Shouldn't all mechanical areas be able to be sealed off from the living area, given enough insulation at the windows? I could see the driver area not being sealed off, but still having the living area be absolutely safe.

The operative word is "Should". And in fact that's how they make them, but they don't always stay that way.....

Not a chance. Vehicles leak everywhere. Through the firewall, the doors, the windows, the roof, the floorboards, the... everywhere. We aren't talking about the metaphorical submarine with a screen door. This submarine was built out of screen.

You can seal it! Yes, you can, absolutely. The question, remember, is what happens when you seal it and accidentally miss that one critical leak (of which there are many) through which the exhaust then hotboxes you in your nicely sealed cabin.

I suspect this is why so many people that live out of vehicles (Cars, RVs, whatever) have a fire/carbon monoxide detector.

I think having more than one for redundancy would be a good idea.

*nicely sealed coffin

In many cases, this is why the trailer is still somewhat better if you're thinking totally mobile living area. Since it has no engines to speak of, the only worry about leaks is if you connect 1 or 2 LPG tanks. Need to keep an eye on the gas lines for vibration induced abrasion/breaks if you move about a lot to make sure they're still intact.

As an alternative, a heat exchanger ventilation system may work. This way, you can maintain a comfortable temperature indoors for a bit longer while still ventilating.

If you use LPG / Propane / Butane for anything in a vehicle other than propulsion:

- make sure it is periodically inspected

- keep a hawk eye and a dogs nose out for anything suspicious

- get a fire extinguisher and a fire blanket, learn how to use them

- make sure the vehicle is very well ventilated

- always ventilate for a few minutes before starting / igniting anything

- if you suspect something is wrong check with soap, not with a match

Gas explosions in RV's and mobile homes are unfortunately not rare at all.

> - if you suspect something is wrong check with soap, not with a match

Would you mind elaborating on this point? I don't know what you're referring to.

If you think the tank or a hose is leaking, rub some soap on it and see if it bubbles.

I use a squirt bottle with dish soap solution, or a cup and a paint brush. I also have a gas detector, which are not too expensive, but I don't always have it when I need it. Soap and water are almost always readily available.

Some people have the habit to use a lighted match or flame to discover small gas leaks. Simply pass the flame near the suspected leak source. It almost never results in a tragic accident, since gas has mercaptans added to cause the unmistakable (rotten egg) smell of a gas leak. There have been a few cases, however, where some fool either ignored the smell of gas, or couldn't smell, or whatever, and blew himself to smithereens, and/or caused a big fire.

Why would anyone ever think this was a wise thing to do?

Well, if it is a large leak, the smell should make it obvious when it is a really bad idea, and you'll have no trouble hearing such a leak. If you're trying to find a tiny leak this actually seems to work well and is relatively safe due to the speed at which natural gas dissipates. IMO it is somewhat less safe when using LP gas, since LP gas is heavier than air, and can pool near the floor. Remember, until recently, gas water heaters, and other appliances had a partially exposed pilot light, so any significant leak could potentially find that, but rarely did.

source: I've somewhat nervously watched old-timers do this. I've also accidentally discovered leaky welding torches this way.

> it is somewhat less safe when using LP gas, since LP gas is heavier than air, and can pool near the floor

But if you're doing it with city gas, it's lighter than air and can pool between joists.

Really, just go mix up the spray bottle of soapy water. It works great for non-flammable gases too.

http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/how-to-check-for-gas-l...

Gas explosions in RV's and mobile homes are unfortunately not rare at all.

No, they are not.

It does not help that, as my brother-in-law found out the hard way, one of the effects of being exposed to the gas is that you become groggy and lose judgement. He's luckily still alive, but with serious scarring on about 1/3 of his body.

Therefore develop good habits. Be religious about it. It is only the fact that it IS a habit which will cause you to do the right thing when you need to and have impaired judgement.

Ai. I feel for your brother in law, I have had a very extensive 2nd degree burn (right arm, most of my back), no pigmentation there whatsoever which leads to the occasional weird look. Burns are bad.

I forgot to add one more thing in the list, which is that gas will pool at the bottom of enclosed spaces and it can blow up on you even when you think there is none.

It is surprisingly hard to seal the darn things. When you are driving at highway speeds, there are all sorts of eddy currents of wind around the thing and you get drafts from the oddest places. The rear is the worst.

A simple sheet of clear plastic (even cling wrap) sealed across the window will keep air from circulating.

Used this on a house with single-pane windows growing up.

Works amazing, simple and cheap.

Of course you can manage to improve the insulating properties. I'm not questioning that. I'm questioning whether it can be done safely with an automobile.

Only mentioned as windows are biggest heat loss sources other than doors, and this bus has tons of windows obvsly.

I'm with you on that point. What's the least flammable insulation available for body filling, fiberglass?

Edit: ceramic or rock wool perhaps, but mind the dust and know which treatments were applied.

Is there a periodic tropical storm at your house? Because driving at highway speeds is like having gale-force winds blow at your house.

For the sake of pollution I really hope he's not idling a diesel all day. And [most] generators are also really bad.

I know nothing of Hank, but it is funny how the canonically most-environmentally-friendly people, hippies, do that kind of thing all the time without a second thought. The ancient Beetle that puts out more smoke clouds than horsepowers, for example.

Hank certainly has other options. He can stay at RV camp grounds and use their hookups. He can buy massive banks of batteries. He can travel only in good weather in temperate climates. I'm just speculating assuming none of these are acceptable options.

Maybe solar panels/battery/converter combo?

Darren from Hak5 is touring across America to hacker spaces and the like, and he did something like that[0] which surprisingly was used to power more than I thought would be feasible. And this was on a sprinter van, so with a bus like this, one could get 4x the amount of energy.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kSX2j7MGT0

Solar power would be great for charging a laptop or running a heater plate, but for HVAC? Air conditioning and heating both gobble power, and there is no sun to power your heater on a cold night.

Sample window air conditioner: http://www.sears.com/kenmore-15-100-btu-room-air-conditioner...

1410 watts, AKA 2 horsepower.

Old fashioned space heater: http://www.sears.com/kenmore-oil-filled-indoor-heater/p-0327...

1350 watts

In my eyes, there's no way one is going to get a traditional HVAC in something like this due to power consumption restraints that you mention. Though, if you watch the video's of Darren preparing, hes powering more than just a laptop or a heater plate (he also employs batteries to get over those night time constraints).

That being said, I feel like one would probably better off trying to solve the heater on the cold night problem by first approaching it from a fluid dynamics perspective (kind of like a glycol HVAC) and then using minimum energy for things like a pump. Though that is probably outside of the scope for this specific project, but it is probably worth looking into for those interested in building on what is going on here.

A little Yamaha or Honda generator will run the tiniest AC units in a pinch. You won't be running much else, though.

I just installed AC units at home that move around 2500 W of heat energy (in and out, heating and cooling), at about 800 W energy consumption.

If one of those units is enough for the bus, and it's on 30% of the time that would mean around 250 W per hour power requirement, resulting in 6 kWh over the day.

In a reasonably sunny environment, solar panels can get 100 W per square meter. Let's say there are around 15 sqm available on the roof, yielding a total of about 12 kWh over the day - that's assuming around 8 hours of sun. If that doesn't work out due to latitude, it would be relatively easy to design panels that can be unfolded, providing extra area and serving as an extensible roof at the same time.

If batteries and inverter don't swallow more than 50% of that yield, it should be enough to drive a normal AC, lighting, and a laptop, maybe even a small fridge. You'd need a backup stove for the winter though.

In my experience it's better to park in the shade and keep your windows open to let some air flow, than to park in the sun to run AC…

>If one of those units is enough for the bus, and it's on 30% ...

This is why some full time RV'ers are picky about what state they are in for a given season. If you're in Texas, or another hot climate in the summer in a large bus, you'll need two or three tons (24,000 to 36,000 BTU) of A/C capacity (sometimes more!) to keep it habitable through mid-day and late afternoon.

If you have a large (cover the roof) solar/battery/inverter system, you can run all night without having generators start (and interrupt everyone's sleep) in most cases.

Most people that I know of use LP for heat.

A good sleeping bag, and you don't need to heat anything at night.

True, but if you have any pipes with standing water you might be unpleasantly surprised in the morning.

I've been studying sailboats and living aboard them for the last year. You would be amazed on what tech is out there to be virtually self sufficient for energy, water and heating/cooling. A lot of this can transfer to a live aboard bus. * Wind-electric generators * Led * Solar Panels * Low voltage heaters..etc

Many of the comments here about cooking fuels being heavier than air are correct about the danger- nothing that proper ducting and a bilge pump could not handle. In order to live like this you must adopt a camping lifestyle. Everyday life activities, such as cooking and bathing, become more like camping and require more preparation.

edit-poor formatting, sorry. I meant the asterisks to be bullet points.

mixmax here on HN lives on a boat.

It doesn't have to be solar - hydrocarbon fuel is fine, as long as it's clean burning. Which diesel is not.

Natural gas would be ideal, gasoline in a good engine second best.

Slightly patronising there - however much you compare pollution and energy use over lifetime, the absolute worst thing you can do for the environment is buy a new car.

It's far better to run an old one into the ground.

You don't even need to go looking for the production "costs" of the vehicle. Just think of the distance that all the different parts of your new vehicle have travelled before they're put together... and then shipped to your country.

Do you have a source that gives estimates of carbon output from vehicle shipping? I'm wondering roughly how many fumey-old-bug miles correspond to pre-owner new-car transport.

I remember a New Scientist article focusing specifically on the shipping aspect but my google-fu has let me down.

This has some interesting references: http://www.salon.com/2008/04/21/ask_pablo_cars/

Bob Pease used to make some pretty convincing arguments for driving his old beetle (vs buying a newer car). Actually, the more I think about it, Bob Pease might still make those arguments if he were alive today, despite the fact that he died in a crash in a 1969 Beetle, that might[1] have been survivable in a newer car.

http://www.edn.com/electronics-blogs/readerschoice/4368147/A...

[1] Past personal experience: Many of the elderly people I have seen go through car crashes in which the airbag deploys experience injuries from the airbag that often lead to their death or convalescence. Of course, they would have fared no better without the airbag.

From an energy point of view, maybe.

But from a pollution point of view not even close.

PS. Shipping is not really that expensive in terms of energy.

While true, the average weight of a car is 4,000 pounds, of which the engine is 600, all of which is recyclable steel.

The best of both worlds is to ride an old chassis with a modern/freshly rebuilt engine. Both frugal and low pollution. There's no reason to run the chassis into the ground using an engine that's burning oil and choking on the gas.

I wish car engines were modular, where it was enclosed within a frame and only had 1-2 connection points for power/fuel. That way, you could swap the engine in 1-2 hours just by hoisting the old engine out and dropping the new engine in with a lift.

It was like that sixty years ago, but we sacrificed a lot of that for compactness and increased sophistication of the engine management systems (which wildly increase reliability, longevity, fuel economy, and power)

The best of both worlds

Partially agree! Modern engines, or a properly rebuilt & maintained engine, can do great things for an older chassis. That said, a rolling chassis can and will wear out. There comes a time where replacing all the failing parts is a losing proposition both for you and Earth.

But the new car is already here, sitting on a nearby lot, not being driven while I drive my clunker around. Your argument may apply to a future reduction of car shipments if enough people follow your advice, but that is hard to count on.

False through incomplete causality.

Your purchase of that already-extant vehicle will trigger production of another in today's very tightly-managed-inventory world.

Increasingly, even automobiles are made to order (c.f.: Tesla).

There are CARB pollution standards for generators today. Only California requires them AFAIK. There are also EPA pollution standards for imported generators, but I consider that to likely be a protective tariff in disguise.

There are 12 volt AC units available, but they are more expensive, and not every vehicle's electrical system can handle it.

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