Does Gravity Travel at the Speed of Light? (1998)
math.ucr.edu
math.ucr.edu
"LIGO, which stands for the Laser Interferometer Gravitational-Wave Observatory, is a large-scale physics experiment aiming to directly detect gravitational waves. [...] At the cost of $365 million (in 2002 USD), it is the largest and most ambitious project ever funded by the NSF.
Observations at LIGO began in 2002 and ended in 2010; no unambiguous detections of gravitational waves have been reported. The original detectors were disassembled and are currently being replaced by improved versions known as "advanced LIGO", scheduled to be operational by 2014.
[...]
Measurable emissions of gravitational waves are expected from binary systems (collisions and coalescences of neutron stars or black holes), supernova of massive stars (which form neutron stars and black holes), accreting neutron stars, rotations of neutron stars with deformed crusts, and the remnants of gravitational radiation created by the birth of the universe."
For more:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LIGO
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational-wave_detector
There is a fantastic lecture series by a Yale U. astronomer that touches on this and related topics from a calculus-free perspective:
http://oyc.yale.edu/astronomy/astr-160
Also on youtube and iTunes U.
In general, in fact, space interferometers have been held up and moved to ground-based systems. (See also SIM and TPF.)
http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/index.html
http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/books.html
http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Administrivia/booklist...
There is a very good discussion from r/askscience on this topic: http://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/1kjp6z/does_grav...
The speed of light can be thought of as infinite speed in that context. Since time slows as you get closer and closer to the speed of light, it stops completely at 299,792,458 m/s (hypothetically, if you gave photons a reference frame).
Trying to go faster than light could be compared to a car slowing down for a red light. Once at the red light, the car stops. Going faster than light would be like asking the car to go slower than completely stopped. It just doesn't make sense in a philosophical or mathematical sense.
The propagation time is a combination of the 'tick rate' and the 'size of the granules'. In Minecraft, I'm pretty sure the tick rate is around 1/10 of a second, and the granule size is defined as 1 cubic meter.
In our universe, the tick rate probably is 1/c, or .00000000333 seconds (please correct my math), and the granule size is similarly infinitesimal.
Special and general relativity (at least, as commonly formulated) also assume that space and time are isotropic and continuous, which means there is no "granule", no "smallest increment" in the field equations. That may or may not be true; we're still trying to figure out if spacetime is quantized or not.
A review of Wolfram's book: http://vserver1.cscs.lsa.umich.edu/~crshalizi/reviews/wolfra...
One of the problems with quantized spacetime is that the cells would have a size--and sizes change depending on your velocity. Were spacetime to be comprised of cells, you'd be able to establish a single, most privileged reference frame--and that doesn't sit well with the principles of relativity.
That said, we really don't have good models for what happens at small spacetime scales yet. Gravity is poorly understood. Theories change as new evidence and mathematics develop. I just wouldn't trust Wolfram's opinion without either a.) experimental evidence or b.) a model which is consistent with (or radically reformulates) significant parts of relativity and quantum electrodynamics.
In physics, we examine Wolfram's proposal for a deterministic model underlying quantum mechanics, with 'long-range threads' to connect entangled particles. We show that this proposal cannot be made compatible with both special relativity and Bell inequality violation.
The difficultly: Despite the propagation delay, gravity always points to where the object should be, instead of where it was when the gravity was "emitted".
The explanation: Just like the object itself is moving, the gravitational field (or electric/magnetic field) is ALSO moving! It moves at exactly the same speed, and in the same direction as the object which created it.
It's "disconnected" from the source - so if the source suddenly changes direction the field it emitted doesn't know about it, and continues to point to where it expected the object to be.
More technical:
Why wormholes are impossible, and why you can not create a single magnetic monopoles:
What about conservation of momentum? If an object is pulled to where the other object is expected to be, not where it is, then momentum exchange between the two of them would seem to not add up!
But it works because you can never create a gravitational or electric field from nothing. You can only move them around, so the momentum always catches up.
What about a magnetic field? You can create those from nothing - ah, but you can only create magnetic dipoles, with opposing fields, so again it works.
But, you can never create a magnetic monopole because you would suddenly have a magnetic "charge" where none existed before and the momentum would not add up. What you can do is create two monopoles, of opposite poles. (So this implies a conservation of magnetic pole, just like conservation of electric charge - assuming monopoles exist.)
What about wormholes? They have the same momentum problem - an object suddenly appears where none was before and it pulls on other objects. You could then move it away before it gets pulled in turn by those objects, and that would violate conservation of momentum. So you can't do that.
And, faster than light objects would have the exact same problem - they could move out of the area before they properly shared the momentum. So I suspect they can't exist either. (Unless there is some complicated math I didn't think of which "fixes" it.)
Say some advanced civilization can move around some large mass - an asteroid, a planet, a black hole, whatever, we'll just call it "the big mass". They can, at will, fly it back and forth between two distinct positions we'll call 0 and 1.
And let's say some distance away - a light-year, say - they have an facility where they can measure with excruciating precision the force of gravity on a test mass. After isolating out all other known gravity sources, they can use the remaining vector of gravitation force to compute the current position of the original big mass - and whether it's at position 0 or position 1.
Assuming they can drag around the big mass from one position to the other in a short amount of time, shouldn't the people at the remote facility be able to detect where the big mass is long before light could reveal its position? Couldn't they use those observations to receive a low-bandwidth, but faster-than-light message?
How does relativity prevent that?
So the test mass is pulled in a direction where the big mass no longer is, but rather where it was.
"Indeed, the vector (2.5) does not point toward the “instantaneous” position of the source, but only toward its position extrapolated from this retarded data" (which is pretty much the same location)
The object is not moving inertially. Someone is forcing it to change direction, which is the exact opposite of inertially.
This is not to say that the object will actually end up there. If the velocity changes, the gravitational field changes direction according to the new velocity. The change propagates at the speed of light.
This is a case when a picture (well, a GIF animation) is worth lots of words.
Look at http://jimmahoney.net/pulse_acceleration_field_lines.gif .
(I made this from the "Moving Charge" java physics applet at http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~phys1/java/phys1/MovingCharge/Mo... . It's a demo of the physics of electric charges, not general relativity, but the essence of the idea is the same even if the field equations are different. This follows directly from the central idea of relativity: the physics of uniform constant motion is the same as no motion, if you're moving along at the same speed.)
The point charge (mass for gravity) in the center is first moving slowly to the right, then suddenly changes direction to move slowly to the left. (The small red vector indicates velocity.)
The white lines represent the direction of the field, that is, the direction an object would be pulled.
Near the point source, the field lines point to where it is. Far away, the news hasn't arrived yet that it's motion has changed, and so they point to where it would have been. During the brief acceleration when the source changed direction, the field lines connecting these two regions are "kinked" strongly - that's the radiation, which propagates outward at the speed of light.
A second object would feel a sideways pulse as the wave (kink) passed by.
FTFY.
You learn something new everyday!
No, the remote facility won't notice the thing moved until the gravity wave hits and that only moves at the speed of light. If it's a light year away, it'll take a year before the remote facility notices the shift.
[citation needed]
My understanding is that it points to where the object was, and that the change propagates at the speed of light as gravitational waves.
Instead as the object moves, the gravitational field it emits also moves, so you end up feeling the gravity where you would expect it to be if the field transmitted instantly.
It's when the object emitting the field changes direction that things become interesting.
Incidentally, this generally means that you have to be careful about balancing the mass flow in each direction through your wormhole, lest one mouth develop negative mass (and presumably antigravity) from too much stuff leaving it and the other mouth end up shrouded in a black hole.
*
This is a far more interesting question than it might seem at first glance, and it deserves some attention because it tells us something fundamental and wonderful and just bloody awesome about the universe.
But I don't know how to tell the story succinctly. So I'm going to do that thing I do. I am very, very sorry. Please feel free to move on if this strikes you as tiresome.
Consider the Earth, and you on it. You're not floating freely, so clearly something's going on. We call that "gravity." We can call it, in the most generic sense, an interaction: you and the Earth are interacting somehow, and that's what's keeping you from floating freely.
We can then ask what the speed of that interaction is by putting it in these specific terms: How much time will elapse between your changing your position relative to the ground and your beginning to fall?
Yes, it's the Wile E. Coyote problem. Wile E. Coyote runs off a cliff, floats in mid-air long enough to hold up a sign that says "Help," then begins to fall.
Clearly that's an exaggeration. But just how much time does elapse, in real life, between stepping off a cliff and beginning to fall?
We can approach the problem naively by remembering that all propagating phenomena in the universe are limited by the speed of light. Given that fact, it makes sense to hypothesize that the time between the moment when Wile E. steps off the cliff and when he begins to fall will be equal to or more than the distance between him and the ground divided by the speed of light. It certainly can't be less, right?
We can then construct a set of very, very precise experiments with very fine tolerances — probably involving electromagnets and lasers or something — to test this hypothesis.
And then we can find that we're totally goddamn wrong.
To the absolute limit of our ability to measure it — and our ability to measure it is really good, since we used electromagnets and lasers and other expensive science things — when an object is dropped, it begins falling instantaneously. Not after a very small interval of time, but absolutely instantaneously. As in zero time elapses between dropping and falling.
This is fairly earthshaking, really. Because it implies that somehow a "signal" of some kind is getting from the ground to Wile E. faster than the speed of light. Which is supposed to be impossible.
I'm going to skip ahead a bit here, because I don't feel like explaining the entire theory of general relativity, and it won't be that useful in answering the question anyway. Suffice to say that no, no time elapses between dropping and falling, but at the same time no, no signal or interaction has to propagate upward from the ground to Wile E. in order to make him start falling. In fact, what's going on is that Wile E. is always falling, due to the curvature of spacetime created by the Earth. Whenever he's standing at the edge of the cliff, on the ground, the ground beneath his feet — paws? — is arresting his fall by, effectively, pushing up against him. The very instant that's removed, he starts falling.
So in that sense, gravity has no speed. Because it doesn't actually propagate through space. One way to look at it is to say the gravitational field fills space, so wherever you are, you're already being affected by it all the time. Another way is to say that gravitational essentially is space, so it affects you simply by virtue of existing. The two are essentially equivalent English translations of the equations that actually describe the phenomenon.
But okay, that's half the problem. The gravity of a static body fills space, or is space, and as such can't be meaningfully said to have a speed. But what about the gravity of a changing body? Like you said, what if "suddenly a black hole appeared?"
Well, the answer of course is that that never happens, ever. Gravitation doesn't suddenly anything; macroscopic things don't just appear out of nowhere, and teleportation is impossible. So we don't have to think about that … and in fact we couldn't get meaningful answers if we tried.
But things do move. The moon's moving relative to the surface of the Earth; we can tell, even apart from the fact that we can see it up there, because the moon is the major contributor to the tides, and the tides rise and fall. But what's the relationship between the moon's position in space and the tidal acceleration on the Earth? Are the two somehow always in perfect sync, or is there some lag? If so, how much, and in what direction?
That's actually a much harder question to answer than you might think. There was a now-infamous paper some years ago by a fellow named Tom Van Flandern (recently passed, God rest his soul) that asserted that the change in gravitational acceleration in a dynamical system actually propagates many times faster than the speed of light — at least twenty billion times faster than the speed of light — but not instantaneously. This got a lot of attention at the time. If the propagation speed of changes in spacetime geometry were equal to the speed of light, that'd be fine. If it were literally instantaneous, that'd also be fine, more or less, though our theory would need some tweaking. But faster than c but still finite? That was really hard to explain.
It turned out not to be a problem though. Because Van Flandern just made a mistake in his paper. See, the relationship between motion and gravitation is not as straightforward as it might seem. In fact — and I'm glossing over this now, because the maths are damn complicated — whenever a gravitating object moves inertially, the gravitational acceleration vector at a point removed actually points at where the object actually is at a given instant, as opposed to where the object's light is seen to be coming from at that instant. So in that sense, we're back to gravitation being instantaneous again!
But is it really? No. Because you see, if the inertially moving object were to come to a stop instantaneously, the acceleration vector would continue to point toward its future position for a time, as if it were still moving inertially, even though the object is actually somewhere else. The sum of effects that serve to cancel out aberration when everything moves inertially would break down, and the acceleration field would point toward empty space for however long it takes for the change in geometry to propagate through space at the speed of light from the gravitating object to the point in question.
Except things don't stop moving instantaneously. Things accelerate, and acceleration requires energy, and when you factor that in, the equations balance out again.
(If you feel up to the challenging of following a lot of advanced mathematics, here's the best paper I know on the subject.) - http://arxiv.org/pdf/gr-qc/9909087v2.pdf
So what does that mean? It means that the "speed of gravity" is the speed of light … technically. Changes in the geometry of spacetime actually propagate at the speed of light, but the apparent effects of gravitation end up being instantaneous in all real-world dynamical systems, because things don't start or stop moving or gain or lose mass instantaneously for no reason. Once you factor in everything you need to in order to model a real system behaving in a realistic manner, you find that all the aberrations you might expect because of a finite speed of light end up canceling out, so gravity acts like it's instantaneous, even though the underlying phenomenon is most definitely not.
The universe is pretty damn cool, if you ask me.
No. Tide comes in, tide goes out. You can't explain that.
>>"fall if you are dropped" is just being continuously emitted by the Earth, including before the object was dropped.
it is gravitational field of Earth. If Earth were to move with acceleration (as any movement without acceleration is as good as not moving at all by suitable choice of coordinates) the object would start to fall toward previous "retarded" location of the Earth, until the gravitational wave caused by the accelerated move of Earth "updates" the gravitational field at the position of the object.
>The question becomes what if the object moves - how long does it take to notice the new location of the gravity.
a moving object gets instantaneous value of gravitational field at its new position (while this value may be already "obsolete" like in the above mentioned accelerated movement of Earth)
> To the absolute limit of our ability to measure it ... when an object is dropped, it begins falling instantaneously. ...This is fairly earthshaking, really. Because it implies that somehow a "signal" of some kind is getting from the ground to Wile E. faster than the speed of light. Which is supposed to be impossible.
> The fact that gravitational damping is measured at all is a strong indication that the propagation speed of gravity is not infinite. If the calculational framework of general relativity is accepted, the damping can be used to calculate the speed, and the actual measurement confirms that the speed of gravity is equal to the speed of light to within 1%. (Measurements of at least one other binary pulsar system, PSR B1534+12, confirm this result, although so far with less precision.)
This was always my problem with RobotRollCall on Reddit - no one could challenge anything she wrote lest they be downvoted into oblivion. Furthermore, she never took criticism very well, and would assert authoritative dominance over the topic of knowledge (how dare you disagree with me, I read research papers!).
Her explanations were good, but they weren't ever very complete and while they were well written, they weren't always accurate.
There was an abrasive way RRC responded to some that fired up discussions and I got the impression that this ultimately frustrated her into ending her participation. I've seen that abrasive style/response feedback loop develop with males just the same.
That's not true. Our ability to measure the "speed of gravity" gives us measurements that say "the speed of light":
> the actual measurement confirms that the speed of gravity is equal to the speed of light to within 1%.
I eliminated the cruft so it was more obvious. RobotRollCall's information is older than the linked article (that's from 1998).
>when an object is dropped, it begins falling instantaneously.
Is answering a different question than this:
>the actual measurement confirms that the speed of gravity is equal to the speed of light to within 1%.
It is true that things drop immediately when you let go of them. Because they're already in the gravitational field. It is not true that when I drop something, a gravity particle from the surface of the earth (say 1km away) comes up and gets my apple, and until that gravity particle reaches it, the apple magically is suspended in the air. RRC covered this in the post.
It is the changes in the gravitational field that propagate at the speed of light. So if the sun vanished, which it can't, we wouldn't be flung away for 8 minutes.
Or, as she puts it, "If you feel up to the challenging of following a lot of advanced mathematics, here's the best paper I know on the subject.".
What she writes is basically a long explanation of why the speed of light is not correct, right up until the end, where she hastily covers it up with what the actual science says.
What would be useful would be a dissection of the "best paper I know on the subject". The rest of it just says, "It's not the speed of light... actually yes it is. Don't look further unless you're smarter than I think you are."
That aside, yes, RRC's comments are often lacking in one way or another. However, they're also solid attempts at explaining something ad hoc, a very valuable thing on Reddit.
I read the article again and couldn't pick this out - could you point this out to me please?
Actually, Baez's article disagrees with the last paragraph of RRC's post; in so far as it talks about what's in the rest of RRC's post, it basically agrees with it (the part at the beginning about the Wile E. Coyote stuff isn't really talked about in Baez' article, except in so far as it's supposed to illustrate that a static gravity field doesn't have to "propagate" at all).
Baez' article, and the paper by Carlip that is referenced in it (and by RRC) basically say that measurements like the binary pulsar show that this statement from RRC's post is, strictly speaking, false:
all the aberrations you might expect because of a finite speed of light end up canceling out, so gravity acts like it's instantaneous
The cancellation is not exact; that's why binary pulsar systems can lose energy by emitting gravitational waves. But it's very close to being exact, closer than the analogous cancellations for electromagnetism; that's why we don't observe "aberration" in the direction of the gravitational force to the same extent that we do for the electromagnetic force.
The concept people might think you walk off a cliff and suddenly you're waiting for gravity from the ground to come up is bizarre.
No one thinks that. Most people would think the gravity is the same as when you were one foot the other way on dirt.
There's no instantaneous since nothing has changed (Except a bit of dirt below you is missing)
It's seems more like a bad attempt to sound cute talking about cartoons.
Your post boils down to, you don't like how cute it is. OK.
Clearly that's an exaggeration. But just how much time does elapse, in real life, between stepping off a cliff and beginning to fall?
Meh, not so much. One is already in a gravitational field before one falls off a cliff. The time it takes you to start falling has more to do with propagation of forces inside your body, which would happen at around the speed of sound.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGIZKETKKdw
The speed of propagation of gravitational waves would be more applicable to something like blowing up a planet. What if someone could blow up the earth in such a way that all the debris flew away from Wile E. Coyote at the speed of light? (And also that he has the powers of Superman and would be unaffected by radiation and vacuum.) How long would it take for him to notice that his weight has started to change?
> This is fairly earthshaking, really. Because it implies that somehow a "signal" of some kind is getting from the ground to Wile E. faster than the speed of light. Which is supposed to be impossible.
I don't know a lot about physics and relativity but this actually seems to me how I'd expect it to be. I don't understand why people expect that there has to be an interaction before gravity starts, or that gravity is directed linearly between two masses (you and the earth). It's already being emitted, and you're stepping out off the cliff into a gravity wave that is already there. You're always in that wave. Now the thing beneath you preventing you from being pulled in is gone. No initial setup was required.
Imagine the same example with a light beam instead of gravity. At the foot of the cliff is a ball as bright as the surface of the sun, radiating light in every which way. If you step off the cliff, it doesn't take a few nanoseconds for the light to hit you, because you're stepping into a lightbeam that is already there. No interaction is necessary to set it up.
I dunno. This seems like the intuitive way to think about it to me. Anything else would seem strange. Maybe I'm misunderstanding?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vestibular_system
afaik its the only sense which doesn't primarily detect electromagnetic effects.
I expect the answer to be something along the line of "you can't change the inertial movement of A faster than light would take to go from A to B", but I have no idea why this would be the case. If there's a physicist nearby I'd love an explanation :) .
Can't it, though? It would be extremely unlikely, but pairs of particles and antiparticles pop into existence constantly. Again, it would be so unlikely as to be of only academic concern, but as I understand, it is technically possible that ~10^57 of antiparticles could pop up all over the universe, while their corresponding trillions of particles all popped into existence right inside the sun.
Presumably, in that so-rare-that-it-definitely-won't-happened case, it would take 8 minutes for us to be able to detect that the sun had doubled in mass.
So if the pairs appeared light years apart, the antiparticles would annihilate something nearby, leaving their partners in the sun, as if particles were spontaneously jumping from all over the universe into the sun.
Preposterous, yes, but as far as I understand, not actually impossible.
i feel any fundamental theory must violate the conservation of mass as we perceive it in order to explain existance (not to say that it isn't a very good approximation with a true underlying conservation law)
The general idea is that negative energy due to gravity (this is hard to wrap one's head around) perfectly cancels out all of the energy in the universe (including energy in the form of mass).
In order to preserve information causality, spacetime cannot deform instantaneously.
i.e., an object X in a frame with relativistic speed near c compared to an observer O. O will be unable to detect X by any means until X is very close.
Also, my money is on frame-dragging and Einstein's figures being within half a standard deviation. http://arxiv.org/abs/0911.4718
> Gravity travels at the speed of light, but it pulls you towards where the object would be if the object kept moving at constant speed, not where it was when it left the object
In my mind, gravity was just some sort of "vacuum" the mass leaves as it moves, and other bodies get "pulled in" because that's the space where the "energy" (mass) levels are smaller, and the system tends to a stable state. But not something like a wave that propagates, just a side effect of the global system, not tied to speed in any way.
One think that I believe is important to point out is that this short essay is focusing on the experimental aspect of the measurement of the speed of gravity. It gives an explanation on why this is even an intelligent question to answer and why the answer we commonly accept is that gravity moves at the speed of light. I will never have better words than him so I won't add anything to what he said.
What I would like to point out, based on some comments I read here, is that this essay is not talking about whether or not theoretically would be possible to have a speed of gravity faster than the speed of light.
General relativity and special relativity have been tested on several aspects, and they pretty much are in agreement with all experimental constraint. There is no other theory that can explain everything we see (some theories tend to explain a few things, but not all of them, or they are too vague).
A theory in which the speed of gravity is faster than the speed of light isn't unconceivable per se, but no one has been able to write a completely consistent one yet, mostly because it would have large consequences on what special and general relativity imply for cosmology and particle physics (and causality). If gravity moved faster than the speed of light then we'd have to 'fix' a lot of problems coming down to paradoxes and stuff like that.
So take this essay as a way to appreciate how elegant and fine some experimental questions on gravity (and physics) are.
Gravitational waves haven't been directly measured yet though, so there's no direct confirmation. With multiple detectors currently in operation if a signal is detected and able to be tied to a specific location in space the timing delays between when its received between the two primary LIGO detectors (Livingston, LA, USA and Hanford, WA, USA) and the VIRGO detector (PISA Italy) should allow for estimating a propagation speed.
Advanced LIGO, expected to begin collecting data in 2014 is expected to be able to detect a number of signals so hopefully the question will be settled in a few years. However, there might not be any published results for a while after it goes active. The search for pulsar spindown signals with LIGO data is done via the Einstien@Home distributed computing project; and in prior runs several years passed between when the first part of the data set was collected and when papers on it were finally published. http://physics.stackexchange.com/a/26743/9521
TL;DR: Relativistic models of gravity rely on retarded positions.
- the earth revolves around where the sun is almost precisely
and rules out: - the earth revolves around where the sun was ~8 minutes ago
(where 8 minutes is about the travel time at c). Can anyone confirm?the obsession with the 'speed of light' always seems a bit senseless in this context - its taking a concept which is known to break down in some limit and then applying it right at that limit. this is bound to be confusing.
really the speed of light is like infinity in the geometry of our universe... it just happens unfortunately that the geometry is not as simple as an infinite euclidean space with an independent time coordinate so we end up attributing a bad interpretation to the 'speed' of light.
That is why it can be "faster than light" when it's not faster at all, it's just changing the path of light.
If you're thinking that the matter and antimatter have gravity and that gravity disappears when they annihilate because their mass is gone, that's not the case. All energy and momentum produces gravity, not just mass.
It's a fun exercise to calculate just how strong a laser beam you'd need to have to make a black hole entirely out of photons.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6238297
...so then we still get to achieve an effective result of reaching a destination faster than light.
...and since the gravity warps space, and the warp drive exploits warped space, does that mean that the quantum mechanism behind the warp drive is somehow directly related to gravity?
the ring would contain exotic matter called
negative vacuum energy, a consequence of quantum
mechanics. The presence of this toroidal ring of
negative vacuum energy is what's required from
the math and physics to be able to use the warp trick.
It doesn't explicitly mention "gravity", but wouldn't this "negative vacuum energy" have some kind of important relationship with the behavior of gravity?It seems like it would, yes, but I haven't really seen this discussed in papers on wormholes.
1) it seems his version of hyperspace has a lot of interaction with gravity (e.g. gravity waves like The Deep)