Hacker News Reader

Comment by cliveowen | Hacker News Reader

There's no excuse for not knowing the English language, first as a 21 century citizen and secondly as a web developer.

I downvoted you and am leaving this comment in hopes that those reading this thread don't get the impression that the entire HN community supports such a despicable outlook. I, for one, am grateful for all of the many important contributions to furthering computer science and its associated industries by non english speaking individuals.

Do you ever stop and think that maybe if people were less lazy and started learning English things would actually improve? Information (including "important contributions to furthering computer science") would spread more rapidly, people would have access to an endless stream of news outlets and have a more detailed view of the world. Also, there won't be any need to waste money on translators (do you know how much money is wasted by governments translating official documents, bills and whatnot?). Do you have any idea of the abysmal quality of translation of the many textbooks that are used everyday by college students around the world?

But yeah, I guess ignoring the lingua franca of the world and furthering the status quo is the easiest path.

you know that the biggest advances in Maths are made in japanese, russian and french, right? You know that english got a status of lingua franca only gradually, meaning that for a long time there was actually no reason whatsoever to learn it. And now the best one, you know that thanks to the US money sent to Israel, Palestine is voluntarily maintained a third world country by its neighbor who impairs any form of education (or other form of societal development whatsoever, like having a port, and airport, fishing, trading, traveling etc.) This guy learned some web stuff and some english (whose alphabet and spelling directions are different) while the most powerful nation in the world was sending obstacles (by which I mean missiles and bullets). I think he already did quite some homework.

Now, in the present, we live in a world where English is the dominant language (again, having a huge number of speakers it's a whole different thing) so, as a citizen, you have to adapt.

Secondly, at a no point I said anything against this guy, he at least put in the effort and is commendable. My whole point was that thinking about resorting to translators instead of thinking about how to improve the number of English speakers is being narrow-minded. It's like saying: building a dam is hard, let's just keep the floods coming.

Just because everyone on the web corrects everyone else, English is not the most spoken language in the world. It is the third most while Arabic is the fifth to my surprise: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_number_of_...

Jesus, now I know why everyone is so lazy to learn a new language: you're lazy enough to not read a comment let alone learn an entire language.

I already said it: yes, English it's not the most spoken language, but it's the dominant in that it transcends cultures and countries. Saying that Chinese is the dominant language because is the most spoken is like saying that ants are the most influential beings because they're the species most prevalent on earth.

Did you just compare the Chinese to ants?

Did your poor sensibilities just get offended?

Wrong Wiki link -- you wanted this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_total_numb...

English is a clear 2nd. (And on at least one estimate it is first)

english is my 2nd language and i am very fluent in it. But have YOU ever stopped to think that why should everyone strive to learn english, or be labeled "lazy" otherwise? Isn't it lazy of the english speaking community to expect everyone to speak in THEIR language rather than the other way around?

It's the dominant language (yeah most people speak Chinese because there's so many of them but English is spoken by people of all ethnicities) so it's obvious that non English speakers should put in the effort and not the other way around. The most influential textbooks, novels, papers are written in English: ignoring them because learning a language is hard it's pure laziness.

Wow, what an ignorant comment. There are currently more Mandarin Chinese speaking engineers graduating than English speaking ones and more people worldwide that speak the language as well (both native speakers and overall), yet I don't see everyone in America clamoring to learn Chinese. Of course the world would be more efficient if translation was not necessary, but demanding everyone stop being so "lazy" and learn English is a presumptuous jingoistic fantasy.

Read my response to xerophyte12932.

I have to assume that you can communicate fluently in a non-Germanic language, and that you already know that you can't change the way you think about concepts in a way that doesn't resemble your native language.

Otherwise: Con esa forma tan cerrada de pensar, por favor absténgase de opinar.

Yes, read my other responses, I'm tired of repeating myself.

Also, the only narrow minded here is the one who advocates for a fragmented world and the resulting slow flowing of information.

The only thing these nice commentators are advocating for is not blasting the character of others not conforming to your worldview. You are allowed to have an opinion, but the way you judge the choices of other people is rather unproductive.

All I see here are people going against me without offering a real reason as to why a fragmented world, the status quo, should be promoted.

It is one thing to point out the benefits of certain ideas that differ from the status quo, but being dogmatic and rude will gain you no points.

Again, no counterargument. You're only proving me right.

Since you seem intent on furthering this conversation, here's an honest suggestion for you if you want to truly think about what you are arguing. Extensive academic thought already exists related to the argument you are trying to make -- in short, that it is worth restricting diversity in order to normalize cultures across the globe:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postcolonialism

Postcolonialism, and especially postmodernism, are very complex concepts that require a great deal of study to grasp, but it may be worth your while if you want a serious challenge to your argument.

Is anyone here arguing in favor of colonialism? This is equivalent to comparing people who disagree with you to Hitler. Thanks for your "extensive academic thought," which I note you did not even bother to summarize here. I think this thread is over.

P.S. While I do think some of the statements made by cliveowen were insensitive, I also think that teaching people English (or another world language) in addition to their native tounges would help break down barriers between people, and lead to a better world overall.

Ok fine, you've drawn me in.

The main counter argument is that you simply have no right dictate how others communicate, despite your declarations of improved efficiency and increased idea proliferation. I think people who spend tons of money on clothes and other trappings are wasting resources and contributing to unhealthy societal development, yet I do not go around demonizing these people. I kindly share my view to receptive listeners, while also attempting to recognize my own biases and inability to perfectly understand this massively complex world. Do you also go around proselytizing SUV owners for their massive waste of gasoline? Why not?

Lastly, it would be impossible to quantify this, but I wonder how much cultural richness, diversity of thinking, etc we would be losing if all of the sudden everyone was forced to only use English? My bet is that it would not be a trivial loss.

Anyways, I wouldn't be surprised if translation technologies make this discussion completely moot in the next couple decades.

That's not a counterargument, that's just a bunch of hypotheses. Namely: we might lose diversity of thinking, we might get translation technologies in the future, while I presented only facts:

-translations cost a huge amount of money

-a fragmented world slows down the spreading of information

-the most influential pieces of writing are written in English

In addition, if you say "let's get some translators instead of learning English because learning is hard" that's laziness. There's no way around, it's not like I think you're just being lazy, it's just that you are being lazy.

Lazy:

adjective

-unwilling to work or use energy

-characterized by lack of effort or activity

All I got so far are a bunch of downvotes, what I didn't get is an opinionated, fact-based counterargument.

And I'm sad to say it, but I'm frankly disappointed that a community of engineers (for the most part) exhibits this kind of hidebound mindset.

The adjective "lazy" only makes sense as a part of a specified context - there needs to be some agreed upon "work" or "use of energy" that the alleged lazy person is neglecting, or some shared purpose. This conversation is a non-starter because you assume these foreign-language speakers are operating under the same context as you.

It's kind of like if I called you lazy for not going to the store and buying me a case of beer every week. EDIT: OK not exactly, but you get the point... demanding large life changes from others because you claim there is a benefit. This is the epitome of egotistical exuberance.

You do realize the ironic of your claim that English is currently the most prevalent language is also the status quo, right? If the Earth is to used a single language, why would that be English (besides the status quo, which you obviously dislike)?

Holy shit man, I feel bad for you. Having such a distorted view of life must suck.

I would try to explain my reasoning but judging by your other replies, it would be a fruitless endeavor.

The lack of a response only suggests that you don't have a counterargument, and I don't blame you, it's hard to counter the obvious.

Its also hard to counter the oblivious. If your concern was efficiency, you would instead promote that everyone learn Lojban (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lojban). Then at least you would have a regular, computationally parseable, culturally neutral language with unambiguous phonology and finely grained grammatical control. You would also have an established standard (English is not the same everywhere) and no need to appear to be an intolerant racist too since everyone has to learn a language. Plus it would be much much quicker to learn to fluency than English.

Do you know Chinese? Spanish? French? Unless you are fluent in all three and a lot of other languages, then you have absolutely _no_ grounds to make such a foolish comment. You are as 'lazy' as you claim others to be.

I would even argue that you are much much worse since not only are not learning other languages you are sitting on a forum complaining that other people can't speak your own and they must work just so you have less to do.

There’s no excuse for not knowing at least three out of English, Spanish, French, Mandarin, Urdu, Arabic, Portuguese, Russian and German. If you’ve finished university peeking at a fourth and fifth language can’t hurt either.

How many do you know?

Edit: Oh, and how about a bit of Latin and Greek, maybe?

I do know English, Spanish and Italian and I'm doing my best learning Portuguese but that doesn't mean we should encourage a world divided by language barriers. I'd be happy to completely forget about every language, including my own native language, and having English as a universal language, it's called progress.

There's no advantage whatsoever in having a fragmented world, and if the mess in my head is any indication the alleged advantages of bilingualism are just BS.

While it would certainly be convenient if everybody spoke the same language, I don’t think it would be better than the current state of affairs, where most people know two to three languages more-or-less well.

After all, knowing more than one language does give you some different insights, not just into the culture of the other language but also into your own culture. Furthermore, there is a whole canon of classical works in basically every language which would likely lose some of its value if it were only accessible in the translated form.

We can add to the last point by taking note that English is a particularly bad example of a ‘world-wide native language’. While its simplicity – both with regards to its vocabulary and its grammar – certainly helps when it is the second language of someone, such concerns are of smaller importance when you want it to be everyone’s first language: Such a language can come with a much stronger set of grammatical rules and nicer ways to build composite words and still be (roughly) equally accessible to its native speakers.

I can think of many. For example, you're unemployed, and live in a hostile environment (i.e. palestine). I however cannot think of an excuse for a support team who's native language is english to dismiss the possibility of a serious bug.

If you have bombs flying over your head I doubt you spend your day hacking Zuckerberg's account.

I concur with the second point.

Yes, but

Not everybody has access to good material and resources. Yes, the internet made this much easier. But it may be still difficult to "bootstrap" it

English may be more difficult depending on your mother tongue

It is frustrating when you want to say something in another language and even if you use Google Translate you're still not 100% sure.

So I think he should have tried harder, but at the same time, it may be difficult for some people.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com