Colleges Consider 3-Year Degrees To Save Undergrads Time, Money
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I agree, at the end of the day Universities are businesses. But don't use that as an excuse to be lazy about your education. If you are proactive and motivated, you can get your money's worth out of your school.
The anti-college bias in the hacker community is really unfortunate, and ultimately it stems from a misunderstanding of what type of animal college actually is. I certainly agree that there are many talented people who do not need to go to or complete college. However there seems to be an assumption that it is the responsibly your college to stimulate your hacker ingenuity. Maybe that flew in your gifted classes in high school, but college is much more like the real world. In college it's your job to find your niche where you are intellectually simulated.
EDIT: And as for the complaining about general education requirements, you need to take a look at University of Chicago. They have the strictest general education requirements out of any college and it seems to work for them. On the other hand, if you really are against general education requirements, you should have picked your college better. A college like Amherst, for example, has zero graduation requirements (besides a raw number of hours). In any case, there is always a way to work the system. Find online courses that transfer and take them. Take a class at your local community college one night a week over the summer. And so on... At the very worst, accept the fact that your technical GPA probably needs padding anyway, and use GenEds to boost your GPA so you can get interviews.
There is more free thinking contained in one Hacker News thread then you'll find in most college academic departments. An institution is its selection process. And the selection process for a college is that of a priesthood ( which is not surprising, considering the ivy league colleges originated as seminaries). As one Swarthmore professor writes: "Graduate school is not about learning... Graduate school is not education. It is socialization. It is about learning to behave, about mastering a rhetorical and discursive etiquette as mind-blowingly arcane as table manners at a state dinner in 19th Century Western Europe." Paul Graham writes: "In order to get tenure in any field you must not arrive at conclusions that members of tenure committees can disagree with."
Recently I went to a forum about the education of history. The audience comprised professors from around the country. It was stunning just how uniform their views were. And I could actually watch their views become more synchronized real time. There was far, far less diversity of thought, and far less actual information, than is found in a stable of good blogs and discussions sites.
Hackers value a full and balanced education. But college does not provide that education. The university produces bad philosophy ( http://www.paulgraham.com/philosophy.html ), bad poetry ( http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2007/11/tryfon-... ), bad English http://www.paulgraham.com/essay.html, bad history ( http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2007/10/how-daw... ), bad architecture (http://www.2blowhards.com/archives/2009/05/architecture_an_6... ), bad economics ( http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2008/08/de-gust... ), and bad business ( http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200606/stewart-business/ ).
The university could be forgiven it it was just wrong. But it is not only wrong. It teaches you only its narrow interpretation of the subject, but tells you that it has taught you a full and balanced view. That is unforgivable.
I don't know about that. Imagine if schools taught evolution, but then said, "well, this isn't a full and balanced view, but merely a narrow interpretation."
The point being, it's more important for educators to be correct than it is for them to be humble.
You may think that education at large research universities is bad. Many would agree with you. But you've generalized this feeling to cover all of college, which is quite an un-hacker like thing to do. You're demonstrating a narrow and unbalanced view yourself, a behavior that you criticize universities for. I make the simple claim that with personal initiative, almost anyone can find a beneficial college environment, whether that be at a research university or a small college.
Also, I did not just present five data points. Each article I cited presents evidence that the entire field of study is off base. I am saying that the vast majority of the poetry, history, architecture, economics, sociology, political science, philosophy, and English that comes out of the modern universities is systematically biased and wrong.
Sure there are a few good history books produced now and then. And some of the science and engineering departments are very sound. But by and large, humanities and social science education in American colleges is awful.
Furthermore, you simply can't claim in any informed way that places like Swarthmore and Amherst don't provide diversity.
I can claim that. Find me the syllabus of a class that you think provides intellectual diversity. I will show you how the syllabus leaves out books and/or articles that are absolutely essential for gaining an accurate view of the topic.
I bet part of the problem is that you've never really read non-university sources, so you do not even know what you are missing.
One of America's greatest modern novelists (as demonstrated by the awards he's won) works at a university [1]. Further, actual literary criticism doesn't exist as an activity outside of university. All of our poets and novelists that we praise? College educated. Famous literary critics and commentators? College educated. One of the most famous American novels about diversity and racism? Written by a college professor [2]. One of the most revolutionary scholars on colonialism and African literature? A college professor at an American university [3]. And let's not even get into Native American literature, which is basically studied and read only at university.
I've given you several university scholars that are doing cutting edge research in English on diversity, racism, technology, and other important issues. I've also given you an example of a type of literature that lives on only though the efforts of college professors. I could do the same for the other seven fields you claim are producing garbage. It's unfortunate how wrong you our about our university system. I'm sorry to be harsh, but your words are quite dangerous and need to be debunked.
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Powers
Of course they are opinion articles. Saying the university is a pillar of civilization and promoter of the truth is an opinion. Saying the university is a schelertoric priesthood is an opinion. Nonetheless, one of these opinions more closely reflects reality.
Yes, half the articles I cited come from one source. That author is particularly good at pulling together and linking to a wide variety of other sources, so I usually cite him as a one stop reference. Everything talked about in the sources I provided I have both seen myself and read about elsewhere.
You're not even remotely qualified to make such as assessment; few people actually are.
Perhaps I should get a PHD in University Criticism?
The first university field I came to believe was intellecually bankrupt was political science. I interned in Congress, the State House, City Hall, and on political campaigns. I read books that people working in politics told me to read. Then I witnessed how political science was done in the university. To call the field divorced from reality is an understatement.
Over time, I've come to similar conclusions about the other fields. For example, during the recent financial crisis, I've spent a lot of time reading up on economics and trying to understand how the system works. I read Keynes, Friedman, Rothbard, and Krugman, among others. I read blogs and articles by traders and bankers. I got in online debates with bankers, professors, and amateurs. Again, I've found that the economics they teach in the university is nonsense. Most of my classmates had thought the same thing when we took macro back in freshman year. But most people never spend the effort to figure out what good macro actually looks like.
One of America's greatest modern novelists (as demonstrated by the awards he's won) works at a university
1) Awards won is not an objective measure of the greatness of a novelist. Most of these awards are based on social networks and status posturing. And that's not even counting the awards that are outright corrupt. You really should read this article: http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2007/11/tryfon-... There is no objective way to determine how good a novel is. The only way for me to judge a book I haven't read is by the recommendations of people I respect. I have received a number of recommendations about tech books, many of which turned out to be excellent. But no one has ever recommended Powers to me. Now he may be great, but I would need more evidence than awards.
2) The Wikipedia page for Powers says: "He decided not to pursue a PhD in the field because of ... b) the apparent absence of pleasure in the reading and writing that graduate students and their professors do (see his novel Galatea 2.2)." That's a pretty damning statement!
3) But I'm beating around the bush. The most important point is that the presence of a few decent novelists residing in university English departments says nothing about the experience of the average student.
Let's look at the faculty list for Swarthmore: http://www.swarthmore.edu/x10024.xml
Not a single member of the full-time faculty actually produces writing that people outside the university will voluntarily read for enjoyment or interest. Not a single one! The poetry and short stories will only be read in a small circle of mutually back scratching academics. The journal articles will only be read by journal referees and other academics who need to keep up with the literature in order to write their own articles. Think anyone will ever read, "Women, Nationalism, and the romantic Stage: Theatre and Politics in Britain, 1780-1800"? How about "a study of New Criticism's theory of history in relation to later twentieth-century forms of historical and cultural criticism and university pedagogical practices."?
It is possible to write interesting essays on historical literature. But these professors are not doing it. I've tried to read these kinds of journals before. They are filled with tedious drivel. If you want to read how writing about art or literature should be done, subscribe to a good culture blog, like www.2blowhards.com or anything on his blog roll.
PHD's do not produce interesting, relevant and engaging material, because it is not their job to do so. In fact, it is usually better for their career to write as obtusely as possible.
Here is a story from a grad student in the classics:
"And here's the other lesson - doctoral work is professional training...The most successful doctoral students in my experience are the ones that are thorough and careful and take on relatively unambitious projects which don't stretch the assumptions or structures of the discipline too much. They're the ones that finish their doctoral work and go on to useful teaching positions (and then may or may not start exploring more widely). It's definitely not the best and the brightest, the most imaginative thinkers or the people with the great ideas that get through. If they get through it's because they're thorough and they're careful and they're professional and treat it as it should be treated - as a job of work rather than a calling or an exploration." (source: http://www.plasticbag.org/archives/2004/07/what_you_should_k... )
And while I'm on a roll, here is another first hand account:
"But once I was inside, I found a department that prided itself not on its wealth of choices, but on its lockstep approach to the reading of "texts," by which they could mean anything from the Code of Hammorabi to a Taco Bell commercial (the latter was actually taught there while I was a student). Rather than search for the truth in the texts they taught us, we were told how to discover that there is no truth in everything we read. Rather than finding beauty in a John Donne sonnet, we were told how beauty is a bourgeois invention designed to keep the underclass, or the "other," down .... To put it simply: thanks to the concentrated study of literature, I nearly lost my love of books ... I wasn't alone in this, either. Informal discussions among my classmates showed a general weariness with the entire project. Many of us felt trapped by a system that insisted that we shed our bourgeois biases and childhood love of all that drew us to the department and embrace the radical politics that the study of literature, at least at the home of the Banana Slugs, had become."(source: http://www.declineandfall.net/2006_07_01_declineandfall_arch... )
Further, actual literary criticism doesn't exist as an activity outside of university.
People get together and talk about books outside of a university. Ever heard of a book club? But a book club doesn't cost $40k a year so obviously it cannot be as good. The internet has no shortage of fascinating blogs that criticize literature.
But you are right, the peculiar activity known as "actual literary criticism" remains the special domain of university English departments. But why on earth should it exist at all? I agree with Paul Graham that the entire field was a silly mistake. It was simply trying to translate the idea of "research" from history and science to literature, which was absurd: http://www.paulgraham.com/essay.html
All of our poets and novelists that we praise? College educated.
Umm. Hemingway? Dickens? Jane Austin? It's not surprising that most modern authors are college educated. College is four years of subsidized fun. Plus, it is a legal requirement for many high paying credentialed professions. Thus most high IQ people go to college. But this does not prove that college should be subsidized, or that it is value-add.
One of the most famous American novels about diversity and racism? Written by a college professor [2]. One of the most revolutionary scholars on colonialism and African literature? A college professor at an American university [3]. And let's not even get into Native American literature, which is basically studied and read only at university.
Morrison is famous because her social networks connected with a lot of influential people, she wrote something they wanted to hear, and her books are now mandatory reading in every university in the country. I read one Morrison book, but I cannot remember anything from it. The people who I go to for book recommendations mostly say that Beloved was tedious.
Also, this goes back to my point about intellectual diversity. If you really want to get a full picture of what life was like under slavery you need to read books like "Roll, Jordan, Roll: The World the Slaves Made" or "A South Side view of slavery" http://books.google.com/books?id=L1USAAAAIAAJ&printsec=f... Needless to say, neither of these books is popular in the university. In fact, a professor would almost certainly get fired for teaching the latter book.
I did enjoy Things fall apart. Note that Achebe wrote it and it became popular before he was a professor. Was there value-add on the part of the university? And again the point about intellectual diversity. If you actually want a "full and balanced" view of colonialism and post-colonialism, you need to read accounts like "Wanderings in West Africa" ( http://books.google.com/books?id=9a7tVFIa0VYC ) or Ian Smith's memoirs or watch Africa Adio ( in addition to reading Achebe). But students do not read this stuff. These books could be considered "dangerous" by some. Professors would probably get fired for teaching it. But I prefer the truth. Instead, students only get a partial view of reality. These students then graduate and go work for NGO's or the State Department, and then continue to make a mess of the entire continent because they do not understand it.
The two forms of literature that are popular within university English departments are 1) Race opera and 2) contemporary literary fiction. I suppose race opera can be worthwhile the first one or two times you read it. But it gets pretty tiresome after that. By now I could probably write one. I'd have to ghost write it though, since I'm not of the proper minority group. Han Chinese, Tuetons, Franks, etc need not apply. Nor can you write it if you are a reactionary. Race opera must fit the narrow confines of the genre. The funniest thing about Race Opera is that is not actually indigenous to any of these ethnic cultures. It's completely the product of the university system itself.
If you want to read something by a black person about race that is actually interesting, thought provoking, honest, and not written to impress anyone or win awards, here is one small example: http://therawness.com/why-black-american-chicks-like-thugs/c... Needless to say, nothing like this gets taught in the university. But if you actually want to understand racial issues, you are much better off reading TheRawness than Toni Morrison.
And as for literary fiction in general, read these articles, including the comments:
http://www.2blowhards.com/archives/2007/04/michael_blowhar_3...
http://www.2blowhards.com/archives/2007/01/the_nytbr_secti_1...
And let's not even get into Native American literature, which is basically studied and read only at university.
Tony Hillerman doesn't count? When writing is good and worthwhile, people read it. It's the tedious, stereotypical, generic race opera that no one outside the university reads. And for good reason.
I'm sorry to be harsh, but your words are quite dangerous and need to be debunked.
The modern university plays essentially the same role in America as the Catholic Church played in 16th century France. It serves as the ideological arm of the state, and justifies state power.
So yes, I agree, my views are very dangerous. But maybe one day you'll stop being a naive shill, and come join the rebellion ;-)
I have two rather simple views: (1) An undergraduate degree is the correct choice for a person in the vast majority of cases and (2) Taken as a whole, the research from all departments in our university system is valuable. It seems that we are primarily addressing (2) here.
Now, I will propose to you a slightly more complex statement than (2). Something can be both valuable and contained in an intellectually bankrupt system. You'll notice, looking back at the words I typed, that I never even attempted to address the bankruptcy of the intellectual communities found in universities. The reason why I never made such an attempt is because I agree with you. The ability to publish a radically dissenting view is reserved for a special type of intellectual, one who is both particularly famous and smart. It certainly is one of the largest problems that needs to be solved in academia. However, this problem is certainly not justification to disregard the entire output of academia, as you seem to claim.
I think you'll be disappointed to find that your lengthly and informed post is essentially wasted on me, because I agree with you about corruption. You've made certain subpoints that I do not agree with, but on the whole the thrust of your argument is correct. I understand and have personally experienced the race and ethnic operas that are so distracting from true education.
The three professors I brought up were meant to be examples of value, not examples of people moving against the academic grain. I am happy to hear that you have read Achebe, and you should read Powers as well. He is a particularly interesting character, and I think his work will serve as our moral compass as our society becomes more dependent on technology. I will briefly point out that his views on specialization do not contradict my point as you seem to think; they actually support my point. The fact is that he decided to become a professor at a university. Why would he do that if he had your world view? Anyway, Powers is enough by himself to disprove your assertion about academic research as garbage.
One of the projects that Powers works on is the Seedbed Initiative at UIUC-- collaborative research between the computer science, english, and music department on university education. I doubt even your cynicism can degrade the value in the Seedbed project. Our cultural computing program in general is pretty positive in that regard. I encourage you to read about some of the research being done here, and I'd be interested to know how it fits in with your preconceived notions.
http://cultural.cs.uiuc.edu/Seedbed/ http://cultural.cs.uiuc.edu/
I have many radical views, about education, economics, technology, and more. I developed all these views at university and I am sure I will develop more before I graduate. Apparently I survived the brainwashing that you imagine in your mind. I think it is particularly ironic that you mention joining a rebellion; people with your attitude simply will never start a rebellion. Your bias, fear, and ego cause you to view everyone else as braindead sheep. If you were actually going to start a rebellion, I'd be one of the people you'd want!
Consider the humor (or sadness) in this situation. You've been talking to a fairly radical human being who made a small claim about the value of the output of our university research, and you end by concluding that I am a native shill. Yes, universities can and should do far better. But the alternative is to end up with your world view, another type of brainwashed propaganda in itself.
Arguing with people like you always makes me extraordinarily sad. You exhibit all the characteristics of a racist, lumping all the people of a certain type into one group, unable to see the subtleties in the situation. Anyone who even tries to defend a part of the system must be braindead, right? Are things really that black and white to you? It is my hope that you drop the 'more enlightened than thou' crap so we can have a beneficial discussion.
The internet is an autistic medium. When you called my views "dangerous", I thought you were taking the discussion a little too seriously, so I responded with a playful retort (notice the wink). Obviously, the humor was lost in transmission.
Regardless, I am not organizing any kind of rebellion. This is simply a fun intellectual tussle. When I start gathering troops on the moons of Yavin IV, we can talk about dangerous.
Anyway, Powers is enough by himself to disprove your assertion about academic research as garbage.
I already acknowledged in a previous comment that there was some good stuff coming out of the university. It's just mostly garbage in the humanities. It's a high enough ratio of garbage to fully justify the "The anti-college bias in the hacker community" that you originally complained about.
(2) Taken as a whole, the research from all departments in our university system is valuable. It seems that we are primarily addressing (2) here.
The relevant questions as I see it are:
1) Does the average student have a net increase to his knowledge from attending the university?
2) If yes, is there a net increase from the classes and school work?
3) If yes to 2), is the net increase greater than what the student would otherwise be doing.
4) If yes to 3), is it worth the money?
5) Is a university education worth subsidization from the government?
6) Is the net output of university research a net positive?
7) Is the research worth subsidization from the government?
8) If no to 5), should the university be actually disestablished- ie, all ties between it and the government cut off?
My answers:
1) Debatable. Some courses are quite good, especially in the sciences. But there are a number of courses that are actually destructive of knowledge. In several of the fields I know very well - sociology, economics, and architecture - the main output of the courses seems to be elaborate lessons on why 1 + 1 is 3, and why ugliness is beautiful and beauty is ugly. I actually think the net effect of architecture education in particular is actually negative.
2) Most of my learning in college came from clubs, other students, and independent reading. The net effect of classroom education is probably negative for most people.
3) In my case, I have learned way more outside of the classroom than in it. The benefit of the college years was lots of free time.
4) Unless you are rich, it's not worth paying sticker price for a private college. The price of a public college is not much greater than the cost of living in a city, so you should probably go just because it's a lot of fun. But you should rely on yourself and peers for actually learning, not classes.
5) I'd say absolutely not.
6) In some of the sciences the output is definitely a net positive. In the social sciences, law, architecture definitely not. Those fields have done incredible damage. In literature or history, well, it's about 99% garbage with 1% guys like Powers, David Fischer or Bryan Ward-Perkins. So I guess that's a net positive, if only because bad literature doesn't harm anyone, you can just ignore it.
7) Outside the scientific fields, no. There is simply not enough good output to justify the hundreds of billions of dollars that universities receive.
8) I am a disestablishmentarian - especially with regards to the humanities. The government should not be in the business of telling its subjects what to think. There should be no subsidies. All credentialing laws requiring a degree to perform a profession should be revoked. All laws that allocate funds based on holding a PHD or institutional affiliation should be revoked. Universities should lose their non-profit status and be taxed like everyone else.
I encourage you to read about some of the research being done here, and I'd be interested to know how it fits in with your preconceived notions.
Well, there seems to be no way for me to actually view the output of the project. So until I can see the results, or see evidence of someone outside the university enjoying the results, it does indeed fit my notions that most academic work seems to be produced for the benefit of those producing it, with little contribution to society as a whole.
1.) Agreed.
2.) I agree with the first part. I'm not sure I agree that there is a negative effect for most people. I'd also argue that college provides a unique environment that allows these types of things to happen.
3.) I also agree, and this ties into what I mentioned in 2.
4.) Again, we have a consensus. I will note though that hardly anyone pays the sticker price at private schools. Others in my family are currently attending private school, and they are paying about what I am paying at a public school.
5.) My answer to this question ties into a larger debate about the proper role of government, so I'll just avoid it for now. :-)
6.) While the numbers are not what I put, I agree with the general premise. I'm not necessarily convinced the quality to garbage ratio could be higher outside of university. I'm more inclined to think that it's just a reality of creation, where most of it is garbage.
7.) and 8.) are larger issues about the value of humanities in general. Something I wouldn't want to get into here, but I've written about it before on HN. I don't think the line is as clear between the humanities and sciences as you seem to indicate. There is definitely a subjectivity about science as well. History is full of correct scientific views that were vilified in their time. The benefit of humanities is also largely unquantifiable, and thus difficult to defend. I will say that salary wise, the free market indicates that philosophy majors are just as valuable as math majors later in their careers.
So you see that we are in agreement about many points. I simply hold that college is a worthwhile experience, and I do not think the quality to garbage ratio is any different than the real world. I have to filter out the garbage from most of the books I buy at the bookstore as well. I also hold that experiences outside the classroom are not directly reproducible in the real world, and thus should be incorporated into our assessment of the value of college.
Your points about taxation of university income and wasteful government subsidies are larger issues that we probably shouldn't tackle here. Suffice to say, the money wasted in educations starts from grade 1. I have a lot of first hand experience with how the Chicago Public School system works, and there are inefficiencies abound. The only reason why I am remotely comfortable with it is that I think the abolishment of the system would result in a loss in human capital greater than the money saved. That's not based on any data, but it's something I'd like to believe is true. Admittedly, that sentiment is less likely to be true as you go up in education level.
I apologize for my overreaction, and while we certainly don't see eye to eye on a few things, I think we agree on some others. I'll certainly admit that you've given me a few things to think about (even if that admission proves how quality education can take place for free outside of university) ;-).
And, I found that college is more about socializing than learning.
From the undergraduate CS adviser at a major university (Paraphrased, this was a coffee hour conversation): I've actually never had a student come to me and tell me they wanted a broad education. Even very motivated students try to fill their gen-ed requirements with stuff they expect to be useful or easy.
There is a fundamental disconnect here. College employees want to sell one product but college students wish to buy another. College admins want to keep the money flowing.
I'd love it if new entrants take over the world here, but I don't see that happening. College is not a very competitive market.
Indeed. The United States looks bizarre to other countries because accreditation of colleges is done by associations of previously accredited colleges. You get to be in the club if the club admits you.
http://www.ed.gov/admins/finaid/accred/index.html
But the clubs make one of the requirements of membership a substantial capital expense for certain kinds of facilities, so a new market entrant has to start out with a substantial supply of cash at the beginning. For colleges tha initially have no endowment income, starting out while relying mainly on student tuition payments for revenue is quite risky.
Accredition and reputation are the main barriers.
Agreeing with your first point that there are lots of Ph.D.s to go around to staff many colleges, how does one check your second point that a particular person is a good teacher? What is the best evidence for determining who is an effective teacher at the college level, and how is that evidence gathered at each college where Ph.D.s teach, and used at each college that has occasion to hire new faculty?
Current method: student evaluation. Treat it as a roughly equal mix of easiness, sympathy (1), clarity and charisma.
The best method would be to measure outcomes on standardized exams. However, in all cases I've seen, the teacher doesn't affect this very much. Very few places do this.
In practice, most teaching colleges hire mainly based on personal connections or random chance (whoever applied at the right time). So I didn't mean to imply that new entrants into the college market could do a good job of hiring teachers. Basically, they can do just as good a job as anyone else.
(1) Fun fact: my teaching evaluations went down about 40% after I stopped acting sympathetic and started writing my own tests.
"Sorry the test is so hard, I didn't write it. I'll try to help you pass it and see what I can do about a curve." -> good evaluations.
"Stop whining, i'll curve it if it's too hard. And yes, I do expect you to understand the concepts rather than just do mindless calculations." -> bad evaluations.
I could probably try harder to game the system, but I don't really want an academic job anymore.
You've convinced me that to claim that the college market doesn't have a lot of participants makes no sense. But I don't think anyone was making that claim here. What would be good evidence that a college that wants to do something new and different (e.g., offer a three-year accredited degree at lower cost than a four-year degree) is in a strong competitive position in the current market? How do colleges compete one against another?
They compete for new students / the parents of said students. The problem is even with all that competition schools don't grow and quickly grow and take over the market so students end up competing for them. Which is why schools focus on looking good from the outside and not really innovating in education.
If colleges believe they can offer a 3 year degree that will result in students who are able to compete against students with a 4 year degree, they will do so. And, to be honest, a couple will probably try.
The format of higher education in America has been evolving for close to 400 years. During that time, many ideas have been tested, and you can still find a few colleges that are very different than the norm. However, the vast majority look similar in terms of how degrees are structured because that is what was found to be the most effective in preparing students for a career after they graduate.
You can argue over whether or not whether the traditional methods are best, but at the end of the day they work for the majority of students here. And, of course, the quality of higher education in America is high enough to attract people from all over the world.
At the end of the day, you don't have to take my word for it - just look into some of the research that's been done, both in terms of curriculum and general student development, and you'll get an idea as to just how much time is being put into determining the best ways to help students learn and grow.
Colleges and universities have an interesting niche to fill. A broad-based liberal arts education isn't just a tradition - it's actually a useful tool that can help with whatever your main task is in life. I am a computer scientist by trade and by degree. My degree taught me very little I wasn't already aware of as far as computer science is concerned. The most mind blowing thing was learning Scheme, which led me to learn CL, and start looking at other functional languages. However, my degree also taught me about art (very important for a CS person IMHO), literature, history, philosophy, biology, mathematics, physics, and more... I have hobbies outside of CS mostly because of my degree. Most importantly, I can draw inspiration from other disciplines, because I understand the basics of many disciplines.
Too many people expect colleges to provide only directly relevant instructional material. This is not what college is for. If you only want to learn a specific trade, go to trade school. College isn't going to get you a job, it isn't going to feel immediately useful, especially when you are young. I had the advantage of slowly getting a degree over 8 years while working full time. It was hard, and the first few years I whined like everyone else - but then I started to see how becoming more intellectual gave me a leg up in business and in CS.
Colleges don't give the students what they want, because most of them haven't a clue what they want or need to prosper in the long term. College isn't job training.
> They don’t want people who are smart enough to sit around a kitchen table and think about how badly they’re getting fucked by a system that threw them overboard 30 fuckin' years ago. They don’t want that. You know what they want? They want obedient workers... Obedient workers, people who are just smart enough to run the machines and do the paperwork.
-- George Carlin
- Kinesiology (fancy term for "PE" and/or "Health"): they had their chance in high school. By college, most people know whether they're going to be "physical" or not. I had to take FOUR of these, each for only 1 hour of credit
- "Multi cultural studies": politically correct indoctrination course. By my observation, usually had the reverse effect of what was intended
- Political Science I & II: Just replace with a poli sci survey course. Interested students could take more as elective or major in it
- Economics and Accounting: Both of these classes are incredibly theoretical, dry, and boring - unless you happen to like the subjects, in which case you're probably majoring or minoring in them. Replace with ONE course about how not to screw up your personal financial life, since they can't be bothered to teach that in high school
- Physics I & II: I don't need two full semesters of physics. Again, just give me a survey course (that's all I'll remember anyway). The interested students can go on to learn more
- History I & II: We know, there's a lot of history to cover, but a whirlwind course would probably hold students' attentions more than two whole semesters
Oh, and, for Computer Scientists:
- The vast majority of people in computer science departments want to be programmers, NOT computer scientists. I recommend splitting this major into computer science and software engineering. Computer Science would be in the department of science and software engineering would be in the department of engineering. For software engineering students, I would collapse most of the computer science curriculum into one or two survey courses and use the rest of the time to teach solid, modern, software engineering concepts (configuration management, working in a team, requirements gathering, design patterns, methodologies, real-world programming, etc...)
I'm surprised you encountered an economics course that wasn't interesting. I find economics endlessly fascinating, and have asked here on HN
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=415683
for recommendations about things to read on economics.
And then you're back where you started, because that isn't really a few survey courses.
Ironically, Melbourne University, one of the most prestigious Australian universties, has recently been moving to an American-style system with more generalist degrees at the undergrad level (eg there's no undergrad medicine there anymore).
Bond university when it existed, allowed you to do law in 2-ish years I believe; no holidays and extremely small classes (< 15). Expensive though.
Not only that but pretty much all British universities. I was surprised to learn that the US traditionally goes for four. Given the similarities of the final qualification, the extra year seems more like a money making opportunity than anything else, so I'd more expect the fourth year to appear in the UK than the US going to three ;-)
My lawyer friends complained that it is impossible to get a degree in less than the standard three years because of the way certain pre-requisite classes are scheduled. The influence of the American Board Association. Why? They said it was all for profit, no other reason.
Which might say something about lawyering in the U.S. - if they're trying to profit off their own future lawyers.
Of course this will kill the whole private school 4 year franchises, that make you believe they can change you as a person (the Yale/ Harvard/... man). 3 years is too short of an incubation time to mess with you IMHO.
So much for dealing with the education priesthood.
(1) It destroys the separation of compulsory secondary school and voluntary tertiary school.
(2) Dumbs down core courses, as the general ed students flock to easy courses or convince lecturers to make the class easier.
Idiocracy is on its way...
This is just lazy. Also, the idea that "people want education that will make them money do they need to skip traditional education" seems even more ridiculous in a time when very few are studying technical fields. Also the argument that many students take classes just because they are easy is stupid and I think those proferring that argument were probably the very same students. Many students are interested in an education.
Does school attendance invariably result in "education"?
How might students gain what you and I could both agree is an education at less expense?