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Comment by lsc | Hacker News Reader

>No one holds a gun to the consumer's head, they just convince themselves they need thing. Then they whine when they haven't saved more than 300k for retirement at age 50 and social security is looking rocky.

I think that we in the tech industry are... different here. In other industries, there is a /lot/ of pressure to look the part (well, to look an /expensive/ part.) Have you ever seen a real-estate agent in a car worth less than thirty grand? Hell, I've met a few sales folks and managers who wear watches they claim are worth at least half that.

Engineering is a little different in that we can dress down, and nobody is going to seriously give us shit for driving a piece of junk car. One can reasonably be a six-figure computer nerd and be a frugal person. A six figure salesman would be... well, he would be breaking a lot of expectations if he lived frugally.

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"America is essentially about hustling, and that goes back more than 400 years. It’s practically genetic, in the U.S., by now; the programming is so deep, and so much out of conscious awareness, that very few Americans can break free of it. They’re really sleepwalking through life, living out a narrative that is not of their own making, while thinking they are in the driver’s seat. It’s also especially hard to break free of that mesmerization when everyone else is similarly hypnotized. Groupthink is enormously powerful. Even if it occurs to you to stop following the herd, it seems crazy or terrifying to attempt it. This is Sartre’s “bad faith,” the phenomenon whereby a human being adopts false values because of social pressure, and is thus living a charade, an inauthentic life. It’s also what happens to Ivan Illych in the Tolstoy story, where Ivan is dying, and reviews his life during his last three days, and concludes that it was all a waste, because he lived only for social approval."

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2013/08/how-americ...

This post made me realize "Bad Faith" was translated to something different in my language.

There's a way out of the looking-the-part problem. Cultivate an image of an eccentric genius (and work hard to actually have genius level skills) and people will start to focus more on what you can do and less on what you look like you can do. In fact, that's why the tech industry seems to get an exemption -- they're mostly perceived as eccentric geniuses.

Also, spend lavishly on the best clothes, eat lavishly, but drive a very modest car and live in a modest home. People don't know what to make of that.

This thread is showing the US bias of the forum again. Some of aren't earning enough to run a car let alone a modest one.

Well we are talking about rampant consumerism here, the US is heavyweight in any discussion.

>This thread is showing the US bias of the forum again. Some of aren't earning enough to run a car let alone a modest one.

Really? huh. My experience has been that even foreign workers demand $10+ per hour, which is enough for a shitty car in a low cost of living area in the US. Good English is a reasonable multiplier.

Jesus, you people are delusional!

You are not perceived as eccentric geniuses, not by anyone. Never, ever. They might say that to keep you on the treadmill but the the truth is that (especially by VCs) you are perceived as cannon fodder with a personal hygiene problem. You are kept around as long as you are useful and don't bitch too much. The minute that stops you are out on your ear. Welcome to the real world.

Indeedy. The squeaky wheel does not get greased, it gets replaced.

Yeah, uh, I didn't mention that you are only employed as long as the employer thinks you are useful because that's obvious, and is true across all fields. Dressing nice doesn't change that, except to the extent that dressing nice makes you more useful in your job role.

My point was just that if you are in management or sales, it seems that having expensive clothing and an expensive car are part of that 'being useful' - Appearance is a huge part of those jobs that are primarily human interaction. Appearance is a hugely important when dealing with other humans. I mean, I'm not saying that social skills and appearance don't matter for the technical individual contributor; they do, but it is not everything (like it is for management and sales.) It is possible to be technically good enough that people are willing to employ you in spite of your poor social skills. Obviously, that isn't the case for sales and management (as those jobs are, in a very real sense, social skills in and of themselves.)

Also note: If you are dealing directly with VC, you are more sales/management than an individual contributor.

You're clearly thinking of IT support and entry level programmers. They're not judged at that level. However, if you have 5-10 years industry experience, a degree and have worked in some management capacity, you're expected to look a certain part. Unless, that is, you're known for doing things that other people say can't be done. Then you get to live simply. Anecdotally, and off the top of my head, I can name at least half a dozen people like that I've worked with in just the past six months.

Also, might want to work with that resentment problem of yours.

>>> have worked in some management capacity, you're expected to look a certain part

If you're talking about dressing cleanly, not betraying only passing acquaintance with showers by one's smell and being able to appear in public without shocking small children into tears - yes, sure. But that costs next to no money. Beyond that - nobody could care less which car you're driving and which house you're living in, unless you're a bank president or some other C level executive or business owner, where your conspicuous consumption skills may imply the success of your business. If you, however, are a professional, there's no problem with living simply, should you wish so, if that doesn't imply looking like a dervish or living literally in a cave.

>There's a way out of the looking-the-part problem. Cultivate an image of an eccentric genius

Yeah, this is what I was talking about with our industry being different. This is... common for programmers. You don't even have to be uncommonly good, just useful.

But I think this is dramatically harder in other industries; to the point where I've never met, say, a real-estate agent like that, or a lawyer.

>> Have you ever seen a real-estate agent in a car worth less than thirty grand?

I've not only seen such an agent, I've engaged hers & his (they're a couple) services to buy my house. And it was just fine. Of course, I don't know the exact price tag on their car, but it was a moderately old suv, nothing flashy, probably nowhere near 30K. Actually, I'd be more vary of an agent with a really expensive car - if he's already so rich, would he care about getting my money enough?

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