Hacker News Reader

Comment by reustle | Hacker News Reader

Great writeup. As someone who never drinks, and never has, it continues to sound like a drug to me and I want no part of it. That said, I still get questioned about my decision like I have 2 heads.

View on HN

I never had a single drink for my first 40 years on the planet, and, yes, people absolutely look at you like you've got two heads.

I started drinking (about once a week) two years ago.

It's moderately nice from time to time, but I also think the decision to avoid it for twenty years of adulthood was a good one - I established who I am and what my coping mechanisms are for stress, and now it's a nice little social adjunct.

My advice: if you're even the least bit undecided about drinking, don't do it. You can always give it a shot later. Or perhaps you'll never drink; that's great too.

THIS. I quit drinking a few years ago and it was the hardest time of my life. Not because, I was having booze withdrawl, but because I didn't know how to be a person.

Most of my interactions with other people involved getting obliterated so I was never able to really by myself around other people.

First become a real person and develop a healthy coping mechanism for stress. THEN, maybe, think about getting your drink on.

If you drink too early in life and too often you might become a complete social retard like I did.

I agree with you in many respects, but it also made me think about the flip side, which is not getting drunk because you want to talk to other people, but getting drunk because you want to talk to yourself.

There is a bit of writing in the wonderfully titled "Modern Drunkard" magazine that puts it well, "The Zen of Drinking Alone" - http://www.drunkard.com/issues/03_03/03-03_zen_drinking_alon...

I would say that drinking early does not on the whole make someone a social retard, given the patterns of alcohol consumption among the communities generally deemed to be sociable, but two of the most useful things I ever learned was how to have a good night in a pub while sober and how to have a good night on my own while drunk.

Yep, I've never had a drink in my 40 years as well. I just never got around to it. I'm not that interested in the culture, either. That said, it does kind of suck to be the sober guy at 3am in Vegas. Always.

At least people always have us as the DD :)

What culture?

Bars or clubs.

Well it is a drug, there is no debate there. Like any drug, such as caffeine or aspirin, one must decide for themselves 1) whether the associated positives outweigh the associated negatives and 2) whether you're able to control your consumption so as not to tip scale from net positive to net negative. Legality and ease-of-acquisition are a part of this decision.

I like drinking, and brewing, and would never give it up; that said, it's crazy to me that others find it so far outlandish that someone would want to abstain. It's kind of like having kids: there are great reasons to want them, and great reasons to not want them. It shouldn't be hard to appreciate both perspectives.

The positives are almost always cultural. Then you just have to ask yourself if you want society to dictate how you live your life.

On the other hand, you wouldn't get very far if you decided that no part of your life could be dictated by society. You'd die before you'd worked it all out from first principles. Unless you were some sort of magical wizard, what has magic and stuff. Then you might be ok. Though I bet you wouldn't, cos it would all have to be new magic and you would have to think of it really fast, like in three days cos you can't accept just anyone's say so about the whole water/thirst thingy and stuff. That water might be poison. So you'd have to be a really powerful wizard to make all new stuff that works without the imposition of society so that you can be truly free before you die of thirst. Though I guess if you were a really powerful wizard you might not get thirsty anyway, so it might not matter.

You're posting drunk, aren't you?

It seemed somehow appropriate.

Then you just have to ask yourself if you want society to dictate how you live your life.

Well, no, I don't. But its an unavoidable force that has and will continue to dictate almost every waking moment of my life.

Switching from one broadly socially acceptable state (drinking socially) to another broadly socially acceptable state (never drinking) does not change the level to which society dictates how you live your life. The only thing that changes is that your sobriety may be a curiosity for people that engage in drinking.

> Switching from one broadly socially acceptable state (drinking socially) to another broadly socially acceptable state (never drinking) does not change the level to which society dictates how you live your life.

It depends. Did you switch because society told you to? You can drink if you want, or not. I'm just saying, if you drink are you doing it because everyone else is doing it or because you want to for good reason?

I made a choice to not drink, and it was based on practical concerns. I decided the negatives outweighed the positives in my case. Simple as that.

Life is cultural. We're embedded in a culture. Cultural positives are not any less "true" positives.

But we're also capable of thinking and acting outside of any given cultural norms, as evidenced by this very conversation!

Heterosexual marriage was (and still is) the cultural norm. Sometimes you gotta ask yourself, does the cultural norm make sense anymore (to adhere to it religiously)?

Bullcrap, booze is delicious and fantastic on its own. It's just like any other vice though, when it begins to interfere with your life you have to dial it back or stop or else the consequences can be severe and profound.

If you're the personality type where that's hard, then please stop drinking immediately. You'll just have to accept that. I've had too many friends in their 30s having to rebuild their lives after alcohol problems.

By fantastic on its own, do you mean pure ethanol? hehe.

Sorry, but this is not true.

Just a few days ago I was muttering to myself about why I couldn't just stop caring about the opinion of an essentially meaningless person, and enjoy the excellent things around me. The moment I had a beer, I stopped worrying about them, and got on with it. The understanding that I had previously been an idiot outlasted the mild inebriation.

I will be exploring why one drink was so remarkably helpful here. In the meantime, it was helpful, and I would have been in a healthier mindset if I had drunk it sooner.

Many things -- alcohol, caffeine, food, exercise, work, video games, reading -- affect how we think and feel. We can use those effects for good and bad. The trick is to understand those effects, get the good, and avoid the bad.

It is not "like a drug", it is a drug just like any other substances commonly called drugs. We just integrated it into our culture, and learned to live with it and accept the consequences of its use (on the societal level, personally it is still as capable of destroying lives as any other drug if abused). But it doesn't change neither chemistry nor biology nor physiology of what is happening.

So if someone talks to you about dangers of such things as marijuana while sipping wine or beer - you're talking to either dangerously ignorant or dangerously dull person.

Drug is a political term.

It is, but not only. For example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug A drug is a substance which may have medicinal, intoxicating, performance enhancing or other effects when taken or put into a human body or the body of another animal and is not considered a food or exclusively a food.

Even in a political sense alcohol is considered a drug. Hell, in the past many countries have even banned it like other drugs. A select few continue to do so.

Further your point that ti has been integrated into our culture, I've read interesting pieces (probably linked by HackerNews) where it was integral to the founding of culture at all. We're a pretty edgy species, and alcohol has historic significance in helping us come down from the anxiety of and reach political/social agreement.

Back to the topic, though I'd love to spider on the drugs-in-society vein, I'm glad OP documented the experience. Have a feeling it will make me much more conscience of the assisted wind-down when I grab a beer after work.

> if someone talks to you about dangers of such things as marijuana while sipping wine or beer - you're talking to either dangerously ignorant or dangerously dull person.

Or maybe you're talking to someone smart enough to realize that just because a bunch of things are in the same category, that doesn't make them equivalent.

That's true- alcohol has a greater risk for dependency and causes greater physical harm than marijuana, LSD, psilocybin and friends.

Yes but a far lower risk of casual use ending up with you charged with something. It would be hard to argue that people smoke marijuana because it is less likely to have a negative effect on their lives. This doesn't mean we disagree on whether it should be legal but until it is I'm going to keep my use down to infrequent trips to Amsterdam.

It only gets you charged with something if you use it illegally.

In many US states, including the ones most frequented by HN's target demographic (CA, WA, OR, CO, etc.), being a legal user is much less of a pain than being an illegal user (and you get much better choice in goods too!)

that's a problem with the law, not the substance.

You're totally right, I would hope that many people would be as smart as that person and understand how much more dangerous alcohol can be than marijuana or many other drugs.

Outside of intensely physically addictive substances such as opiates and methamphetimines, there's nothing more dangerous than alcohol simply because of the availability and cultural acceptance. You can be a hardcore alcoholic as long as you're functional and almost no one will say jack about it.

> how much more dangerous alcohol can be than marijuana or many other drugs.

That may be true but is irrelevant. The original claim was that someone talking about the dangers of marijuana while drinking is an idiot.

My claim is that talking about one says nothing about their knowledge of the other since they are different things. I can talk about the dangers of bear attacks while driving a car. I can talk about the dangers of flying while using a ladder.

That doesn't make me a hypocrite, it just means I'm not spending every waking moment sorting my activities and discussion points by aggregate danger level.

It doesn't make you a hypocrite, but using your example, it would make you an idiot armchair pundit, unaware of your surroundings, or the comedic irony in which your statements are now grounded. Which is more in-line with the original point, I think.

Not that I'm saying you're any of those things, mind you, but your analogy was fairly flawed. :)

I think his point was that alcohol is far more harmful and dangerous than marijuana by virtually every sane metric.

No, it does not - alcohol as a drug is greatly more dangerous than marijuana. Our culture and politics is just messed up to conjure a moral panic against marijuana but to give a pass to much more dangerous alcohol. Both of course may be used recreationally in a responsible manner, and both can be abused.

As a frequent drinker and one who talks about the dangers of marijuana and other illicit substances (as well as legal drugs such as SSRIs) I am neither ignorant nor (do I believe) I am dull. I understand the risks and dangers of my substance of choice and am merely discussing those of another substance.

Everything has dangers. One could fall in the shower and break one's neck. Still, we don't have people going around telling how dangerous showers are. Drinking alcohol and talking about dangers of marijuana without comparing it to dangers of alcohol is like talking about dangers of showers while racing bikes naked with eyes closed on the wrong side of the highway. There should be a context and an assessment of the importance of potential risks.

Please, pontificate further on your beliefs about the dangers of marijuana use, while simultaneously avoiding sounding ignorant or dull.

If you take in consideration the social effects, alcohol becomes the most harmful drug: http://www.theguardian.com/society/2010/nov/01/alcohol-more-...

Usually because that decision is in within the context of some kind of moral superiority or religious belief (which is in and of itself irritating). In the rare case when it isn't there's also the issue that alcohol is a large part of socialization, someone who's never drank may not have this perspective. I feel I have some credibility on this since I didn't drink for similar ('practical') reasons longer than most people and I think that decision was ultimately a mistake.

My decision not to drink is not at all religious or related to moral superiority. It would be silly for me to think I'm morally superior to such a large percentage of the adult population. Regarding socializing, it's definitely there, but not required. I'm often at bars with friends not drinking alcohol.

I don't drink (and not because I'm morally superior :P) and trust me, it's hard to miss the socialization aspect of it. That's the kind of perspective you couldn't ignore if you wanted to, as people essentially club you about the head with it.

It's weird, you could be hanging with a group of people who are the most socially liberal, equality-seeking types on the planet and they find out you don't drink alcohol and it's OH. MY. GOD. and suddenly they're almost as intolerant as those they oppose.

It's really not that difficult to use it responsibly in moderation. I wouldn't question your personal abstinence, but I would question anyone who broadly demonized alcohol.

While I'm not going to demonize alcohol, I also wouldn't downplay the harm. Alcohol is probably one of the nastier psychoactive substances known to man. Alcohol abuse is pretty common (an estimated number of 15 million Americans); it can create a physical dependence; there is a strong link between alcohol and violence (alcohol is normally classified as a depressant, but a significant minority of alcoholics become violent); alcohol is involved in the majority of car accidents. Plus, of course, the health problems that excessive alcohol consumption can cause.

That does not mean that people should be teetotalers (in the end, only a minority of drinkers is thus affected, though a scarily sizable one); but it is important to understand that alcohol abuse is both frequent and dangerous regardless.

I agree with all the things you said, but they are all compatible with my claim that it's relatively simple to use alcohol responsibly.

> ...alcohol is involved in the majority of car accidents.

This didn't sound right to me, so I did some digging and found:

"In 2010, 10,228 people were killed in alcohol-impaired driving crashes, accounting for nearly one-third (31%) of all traffic-related deaths in the United States."

http://www.cdc.gov/motorvehiclesafety/impaired_driving/impai...

I couldn't find any data on non-fatal car accidents, but my intuition says that it would be a smaller proportion (i.e. alcohol-related accidents are more likely to be fatal).

Can you share your sources?

> alcohol is normally classified as a depressant, but a significant minority of alcoholics become violent

It's a nervous system depressant. This does not mean it makes you emotionally depressed.

It is extrememly unlikely alcohol is involved in the majority of car accidents. Please post a source.

> It's a nervous system depressant. This does not mean it makes you emotionally depressed.

Depressants usually have calming effects (hence the colloquialism "downers"); relaxation and removal of inhibitions are common effects (see also the OP about using drinks to wind down from stress). I don't see how that is at odds with what I wrote.

> It is extrememly unlikely alcohol is involved in the majority of car accidents. Please post a source.

You're correct, I misremembered that. The study (a) looked at drivers killed in accidents, and (b) it was alcohol or drugs. Alcohol was involved in only 40.2% of these fatalities.

[1] http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1360-0443.2012....

Which makes me think - if we could develop a culture that is largely accommodates use of such powerful and nasty stuff, and despite its harmful consequences there are an overwhelming majority of people who can and do enjoy it responsibly without harming themselves, and our society is nowhere near being destroyed by it despite all the problems that exist - we certainly could deal with less nasty stuff too, without putting everybody who touches it in prison for 20 years. I mean, if we wanted to...

For some people it is "difficult to use it responsibly in moderation". They are the people with problems. People who "broadly demonize" alcohol? They have problems too.

Same here. I have a rather addictive personality and I'd hate to find out there is a drug stronger than my willpower to get rid of it so I have decided to forego the experience completely.

If my dad was any example to go by then I think this is the right decision for me.

Respectfully, why not? Putting aside state regulation, what's your objection to recreational drug use?

edit -- I'm pretty sure your second sentence appeared after I commented. In any event, I don't mean to put you out. Just curious.

I suspect a history of family related substance abuse. That usually does it.

Though I suspect I'm not as strict as the parent comment this is why I avoid alcohol. Father's side extremely alcoholic including several deaths (both liver failure/pancreatic, and alcohol related deaths).

I've never had more than 1 drink in a day and usually only drink once per month out to eat when someone else is driving.

Alcoholism is scary for most of us that have seen it up close.

Both my mother and father have always been pretty dry. My father has maybe 2-3 beers a month, and my mother one mixed drink every 2 months. I've not had any bad experiences at a close personal level with alcoholism.

Then I suspect it's just being raised in a very healthy environment ;)

I think decision of avoiding certain or all drugs makes total sense, if the person has no interest in their effects and is not ready to suffer inevitable side effects of doing things that our body is not meant to do normally. Hacking one's body often has its costs.

"doing things that our body is not meant to do normally."

The reason it doesn't outright kill you is an enormous amount of evolution to occasionally consume "somewhat overripe fruit". That doesn't mean you're evolved to chug grain alcohol like water, or get drunk every night like the goof in the article, it just means your body is quite very well used to handling a bit of fermented grapes once in awhile.

Hacking one's body, is like eating non-human food like grains or potatoes or beans or artificial sweeteners / colors / flavors.

Human body is a very resilient thing, so it can withstand some abuse for a prolonged time (and some bodies are extremely resilient, read this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Malloy). But it all takes its toll at the end...

Everyone, that is a must read!!! Amazing.

Of course, it's Wikipedia, so who knows if it's true ... but amazing nonetheless.

What a veiled FUD. If you doubt the text, check the references.

Well in fairness the article wasn't joking about there being studies that indicate there may be health benefits to drinking in moderation (as opposed to complete alcohol abstinence). So if you're teetotaling only to be "healthy" then you may not be making the right choice.

> get drunk every night like the goof in the article

The author didn't say he gets drunk every night, he said he drinks every night.

I have a beer or a glass of wine with dinner most nights. I get drunk (i.e. have more than one drink, feel drunk, feel worse the next morning) with a much lower frequency.

Then I missed the point of the author's amazing experiment. If he's not "feeling it" buzzed or whatever, what is the point of all that expensive drinking he's doing and why all the health changes once he stopped drinking? Author is having a lot more than a glass or two, to get that kind of long term habit and those effects, I think.

I also have a glass of wine that goes with some meals, but I don't cook "chicken in wine" every single day. Wine doesn't go well with everything. When I'm eating something unhealthy like pizza, well, you gotta have beer with pizza, but I don't eat bad food every day, so... Or even stuff in between good and bad, I had saki and sushi last weekend, close enough to natural human food to not bother me occasionally, but not eating/drinking that every day.

There's a pretty wide spectrum between completely sober and "drunk".

I don't drink because I don't feel the need to. Simple as that. It has forced me to develop that "social lubricant" internally which people use as the most common reason for drinking. And for dealing with stress, I think sweeping it under the rug (even a little bit, or temporarily) is not the right way to handle things. I have heard so many reasons over the years, none of them have convinced me. As you can see in my other replies in this thread, this doesn't have anything to do with personal experiences with family alcoholism.

I'm also OK with recreational drug use for the most part. You're free to do whatever you please on your own time, as long as it doesn't affect me. I don't feel any better than someone because I don't drink and they do, that would be silly. That's just about everyone.

He lost a little weight, but had an increase in asthma symptoms. He had a harder time winding down, but slept a little better.

I'm not sure what you got out of this article that confirms your aversion to this drug. Care to elaborate?

That he felt it was a loss to not drink alcohol, and that he was consuming sufficient amounts to be worried about withdrawal.

I've also never drank before. People just can't seem to understand why I have never chosen to. I've also never met anyone else who has never drank.

Then you should ping me on twitter / email :) Being non-drinkers is a great excuse to connect

I don't drink either! all my friends think it's weird :-)

There are many drugs which are socially acceptable - including alcohol.

People would look like you have 2 heads if you said you take stimulant drugs daily and have withdrawal without it, but coffee is incredibly popular.

Sometimes what you don't do is incredibly important.

Alcohol is a drug. Whoever told you otherwise was wrong.

I know that feeling. It seems everybody sees it as a challenge to get me to drink.

That and the endless questions. I feel like I have it rehearsed so well now :)

Nice to read others like me exist! My dad drinks, but is pretty picky; only high end IPAs for the most part. That's what he brews too, and I love helping, mostly because I appreciate the science.

I don't look down on anyone who drinks, as long as they're not getting blasted just for the sake of it. Okay...maybe I judge you if you drink cheap beer...but only in good fun!

I'm 22, and I tried wine on my own terms at a wine tasting solo the other day; I felt like I wanted to vomit. Holy crap!

I have my hobbies, and my friends, I just don't drink. Usually 'no thanks' is enough, I've found that even around new people I don't have to say 'I don't drink/smoke' mostly because I don't want to seem pretentious or judgemental. My hobbies include heavy lifting, green tea, and generally eating really healthy; barring something catastrophic, I think it'll pay off.

Nice! I'm 22 as well. I have a feeling it will definitely pay off

That said, I still get questioned about my decision like I have 2 heads.

Well, of course. You're bucking a social norm that is generally enjoyable in and of itself, has a handful of well known reasons for abstaining, and also carries a low amount of baggage that would prevent open discussion of your reasoning. What do you expect?

Maybe you should start...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-12531837

haha.

I too, think alcohol is a drug with a poor value proposition. At least for me. The 'high' is rubbish, and the come down is painful.

I am also part of a minority in this respect in my culture.

Seeing as everybody seems to want you to drink, I would like to say that I commend your ability to stay away from substances of abuse. I, for one, cannot.

I've managed to pull off not drinking like the parent commenter (both because I don't like the taste and I just don't want to)... but unfortunately I love soda/sugar-drinks... which brings other problems lol.

I've also pulled away from soda and I've never been into energy drinks. If you're looking to get rid of them, I'm rooting for you :)

Reply on news.ycombinator.com