I Am Being Watched | Hacker News Reader

I Am Being Watched

amsiegel.com

152 pointsadam52 comments

Wow, this article kind of made me gag. "...absolutely nothing on any screen that is more important than the time I spend with my kid...". Well then you should quick your job, never go out with friends, never read a book - because hey, they aren't as important as spending time with your daughter.

As a father of three, I've learned it's okay to drift after playing Candyland for the 10th time. It's called being human. Your child isn't some precious stone you need to admire 24 hours a day - it's okay to live your life too. And you're in trouble if they begin to feel it's your job to entertain them every minute of the day.

That isn't what he said at all. In context, the point was clearly that while he was actively spending time with his daughter, he wanted to be spending time with his daughter. He never said anything about quitting his job so he could spend 24 hours a day with her. He simply said that while he was spending time with her, he should actually do it and not be on his phone instead.

This.

Kids watch adults to learn the adult behaviors that lead to safety, community, and procreative success. If the only lesson they ever learn is that their behavior when bored is the center of the universe, they are going to have a hard time as adults.

Around your children, you should behave in a way that is reasonable and ethical and safe for an adult to behave. You should also make it your first and highest priority that they don't die. If you do those things, then go ahead and play with your smartphone.

Chances are, when your kids grow up, they will find work, friends, information, and entertainment valuable as well. There is no harm in teaching them that you value those things too.

Come on, man, you're just being a pedant here. If I say "spending time with family and friends is the most important thing in my life," that doesn't mean I've quit my job and stopped sleeping so I can hang out 24/7. It just means that this one thing trumps all others if there's a conflict.

Which is exactly what the author's saying. "Nothing on any screen is more important than the time I spend with my kid." When he's spending time with his kid, all other things are secondary. When he's not, other things are okay.

The problem, however, is whether you like it or not, you’re still conveying the message that your screen at that moment is more important than the person you’re with.

Well, sometimes it is. And most people I know are cool with the idea that they are not the center of attention 24/7. It really depends on circumstances.

Like my baby daughter, they’re watching you behave this way. And I suspect instead of finding it perfectly “acceptable,” your companion(s) find it hurtful, annoying, or just rude, even if they’re behaving exactly the same way.

It depends. Do I do it when someone is mid-sentence? No, that's obviously rude. Do I do it if I'm hanging out shooting the shit, briefly checking mail while exchanging small-talk? Sure.

Unless you are overwhelmingly preoccupied with a device, no one cares.

I think a lot of people don't notice the annoyed glances they get, though, because they aren't looking at the faces of the people around them.

Obviously this may not apply to you personally, but quite a lot of people don't seem to realize how frequently they're checking (like any mostly-unconscious nervous tic...), and when a new email does appear, how often they simply zone out during the 10 seconds or so they take to figure out that no, this isn't something urgent and can be ignored until the next day.

You certainly seem to be spending a lot of time sending your child the message that she's special and important, which is admirable. Are you certain you're not overdoing it? If your child grows up always feeling like they're the most important thing in the world, they're going to grow up a spoiled brat.

Children should know that while they're important to you, they're not always the most important thing on your mind.

> You certainly seem to be spending a lot of time sending your child the message that she's special and important, which is admirable.

Hmm. More like: [...] the message that she's special and important to him.

Considering his child's age the whole world still revolves around her anyway. Heck, she doesn't yet fully understand the world is a complete separate entity from her herself.

Thanks for the comment. I agree that as she gets older she needs to be more self sufficient. Even now she plays by herself in small spurts. The intent of my post wasn't to insinuate that she must always actively feel she's the most important thing in the world, just that if it's a time when we should be actively engaging, say at the dinner table, we should do that, and I, nor she when she gets older, should be preoccupied by trivial "screen time."

"The problem, however, is whether you like it or not, you’re still conveying the message that your screen at that moment is more important than the person you’re with"

I think this depends on the specific situation. If I'm in the middle of a sentence and someone breaks their attention to check on the noise coming from their pocket, that's going to be a problem with me. However if there is a lull in the conversation, and we're both sort of sitting around enjoying some wine, go ahead and do a phone check. I don't need 100% attention just because we're in the same room. If you have to ask permission to check your phone just because you're in the same room, do you also have to ask permission to leave the room? What about picking up a book and reading? Does that require a permission check?

I'm not sure why there would be a particular bias against screens. If you were at a drafting table working and your child is staring at you, I see nothing wrong with ignoring the child and continuing to work. Screen or no screen. Most of the time the child's immediate situation is not the most important thing in the world. She's just fine, playing and observing. I don't think we do anybody any favours by guilt tripping ourselves just because we're busy and it's rather unrealistic to have the child expect full attention from all who surrounds them.

If we are sitting together with a lull in the conversation and you check your phone, then that sends a signal to me that you are not interested in our conversation. I personally find it rude, and it impacts my impression of the other person.

But, let's flip it around. If your phone goes off and you ignore it then that sends a message that I'm more important than whatever else that could be going on in your life. That can even make our connection stronger.

I've personally used this to my advantage when talking to someone that I want to impress (e.g. a potential investor). If my phone is going off like crazy I simply apologize and tell the other person that I need to mute my phone because it's a distraction from our conversation and that his feedback is more important than whatever else is going on.

Haha, how far has society fallen that not being distracted by something is considered out-of-the-ordinary respectful?

I agree with you, I think I'd feel the same about a lull, unless they attempt to re-initiate the conversation after a bit. But I also assume people could be expecting an important message or are contractually obligated to be aware of their messages, so I feel they should go ahead and check during a pause (but maybe announce why).

It's easy to fall into the trap of trying to be a perfect parent, the one we had or wished we had. You can't be perfect, not even for your kids. In fact, if you try to be a perfect parent you'll probably become a bad one.

Kids are very resilient and understanding, and all they demand is to always be kept warm, fed and loved. All other things are less important, as long as they get some. This includes attention. It's a matter of balance, as you can't give them everything.

For example, it's better to provide a bit of high quality attention than a lot of low quality attention. If you are present physically but not mentally, your kids will notice. Better go, read the news or your email, and come back fresh. They won't care that much that you left, as long as you come back both physically and mentally.

No TV rules are great and all, but parents are human beings and sometimes need a break. It's better for the kids to have some TV and sane parents, than no TV but tired, moody and anxious parents. The TV rule is not an absolute one: some TV + present parents > no TV + nanny, for example. All this said, it's freaky to see your very active children veg in front of a screen; the least TV the better.

+1 on no cable. Cable is really bad for kids, as it gives you little control. If you need some break (you will) get a roku or apple TV and put some youtube videos of kiddie songs (google barefoot books, for example). At least this way you have some control on what they watch when you go to the restroom for that well deserved break.

But if “multi-tasking” with a screen and interaction with my child bothers me so much because I’m worried about the lesson she’ll take away from it, why do I find it perfectly acceptable to behave this way around my wife, family, co-workers, and friends? I always wonder how much of this feeling is due to culture-shift (there wasn't much screen distraction when our parents were our age so when we do this, there is a feeling of guilt) and how much of this is a real concern. For example, when our parents turned on the radio or tape, was that audio distraction? Were we parked in front of the radio and did it have a bad effect on the society?

My father read the newspaper at the breakfast table.

> how much of this is a real concern

Attachment parenting is real, and based in reasonable evidence. But catching a glimpse of the smart phone while your child is playing should be fine.

Such a comparision makes not much sense to me. A smartphone screen takes pretty much all your focus, the amount of distraction is of totally different levels than what a radio provides.

For example, try at same time reading (and properly understanding) a mail and have a conversation with somebody. Then try having a conversation with somebody while music is playing, no matter how loud. Ok it gets harder if you actively try to follow spoken words on the radio, but you get my point.

Radio was a bad analogy but how about books or newspapers? As another commenter has mentioned in this sub-thread, there has always been some kind of attention divide like screen has been for our age. Also, we may discard books as a source of distraction but my question is whether it is so because we are used to it.

Books/newspaper are indeed something else, but still quite different. I'm not sure if this is too general, but I don't think anybody takes a book everywhere he/she goes, and picks it up in the middle of a conversation to read 1 or 2 lines, then put it back again.

One of the most helpful and meaningful pieces of advice I ever received as a manager was this:

When you're meeting with someone, give them your undivided attention. No cell phone, no computer screen, no doodling notes. It makes a difference.

I'm paraphrasing because I don't recall the source, but it's worked extremely well--at work, and at home, and out with friends.

Most people won't be offended if you check your phone, but the difference it can make when you don't is generally worth a five-minute delay on your email replies.

If you spend every waking moment with your child then at what point does the child get to be on their own to explore their own imagination?

Do you throw the laundry aside if your child sees you folding it? Do you stop preparing the family meals because your child just made eye contact? Can't leave the room to answer the front door because I'm engaged in a game of blink with my 1yr old!

Little kids just have a burning desire to be interacting with you, and with the stuff you're interacting with. Don't drop everything, just be flexible (and sometimes creative) and involve them.

Kids love helping to fold laundry.

Well, first they "help fold laundry", then later they actually help fold it (then they lose interest, but by that time they don't have quite the same keen hunger for interaction!).

My daughter learned how to safely use knives before she was 3 because she was really, really motivated to get it right so she could be involved in meal prep.

For the younger ones, you can put them in a sling and (selectively) let them grab stuff while you're doing whatever.

The trick is to let them be as involved as they want to be -- it gradually tapers off as they master the basic stuff you do around the house, and the terrain inside their own heads gets more interesting.

A 1-year-old is a sponge, though, more than an independent thinking person. They're not going to develop their imagination much if you stick them in a room by themselves; they're mostly going to cry for you to come back, because at that age they're sucking up torrents of information about "what people do" by watching you and trying to get involved, and that all stops when they're by themselves.

I'm totally in favor of letting kids get bored (and encouraging imaginative play... we have very limited electronic entertainment in the house), but that's when they're a bit older.

I was with my father alone in the mornings -- my mother was slow to rise for medical reasons, and he also drove me to school. I HATED that he always wanted to have the TV and radio on, instead of talking with me.

When I was a kid, my parents used to have the radio on in the mornings (in the car), but most of the time it ended up seeding conversations about the things that were said. I still remember those, down to the silly conversations brought on by the traffic report.

There's something special about being able to share the content as you experience it, rather than it being personal.

I was an early adopter of mobile web enabled devices (pre iPhone) and I remember my friends making fun of me for being so obsessed with the internet, to the point where I felt embarrassed and avoided (with great difficulty) using my web enabled mobile devices in certain company.

Fast forward to the present, and those same people who once ridiculed my obsession are themselves now obsessed with their own web enabled mobile devices...

My girlfriend is a staunch anti-internet type, and she often chastises me for not paying attention to her while I'm at my desk, thus I agree with the intent of the article, even if I don't always practice what it 'preaches.'

I can agree with this sentiment. The thing I try to avoid most is attention to my mobile screen when with my kids/family/friends, without specifically excusing myself from the conversation.

Part of what allows me to do this is gmail push notifications and ruthless filtering of messages so that only the most important things arrive in my mobile inbox.

If something doesn't need to be addressed immediately it gets archived -- I pop all my email off using fetchmail onto a server where I do my "real processing" in alpine later when I sit at my desk.

Also, I try to avoid immediately looking at my phone the second I get the emails. If I'm talking or doing something, I get the notification, and I wait until there's a natural gap in the proceedings to check what's going on, then if something requires my protracted attention I excuse myself and say what I'm doing, then reply. For example "Excuse me while I just reply to this email I'll just be a couple of minutes".

If I'm at the dinner table when this happens (hey I run a business, gotta do what you gotta do right?) I always excuse myself from the table while I type my reply.

My fastidiousness about this practice comes from a time when I observed a 17 - 18 year old boy at dinner with his mother. The boy was holding his phone at eye level facebooking (or whatever) literally the entire time, dividing his attention between his phone and the conversation he was having with his mother. It was repugnant behaviour and not something I want my kids to view as being "okay", so I have to lead by example if I don't want to have that shit played back to me in 15 years' time.

I can very much relate to Adam's observations, in two ways:

First, I constantly have to withstand the temptation to use the "occasional" moment to check my phone when I am with other people. I probably only manage to stay strong 50% of the time, and I have been (deservedly) called out on it. Yet, I so far find myself unable to abandon this unnecessary, rude and impersonal behavior.

Second, I have been in countless situations where I have become annoyed with people that constantly check their phones while they are engaged in a conversation with me. I have actively ("do you mind...") and passively (just stop talking until they look up) called people out on this behavior, and will continue to do so.

Why I, as a "victim" of constant phone-checking, continue to engage in the same rude pattern myself is somewhat a mystery to me. I believe it is partly related to the urge to "beat" your inbox by processing emails as fast as possible. Adam also mentioned that divided attention has somewhat become socially acceptable, and that might be an excuse I subconsciously use ("hey, the others are doing it as well"). People oftentimes don't even make an effort to hide what they are currently focusing on...

I think the most important part for me will be to be consistent - either (sadly) continue to engage in this behavior, and don't be offended if other people do it as well, or (much preferably) stop it altogether and behave in a way that my parents would have considered decent.

I totally agree with what you have written - but thinking this way also has one significant caveat: If you become available to the child whenever she seeks eye contact, she might get used to that (spoiled) and even extort you for interaction later on (loud crying/screaming). Firsthand experience :)

Excessive amounts or a dearth of attention will cause issues.

It's so relative. Maybe you're doing your a daughter a disservice giving her the impression that she is deserving of attention more than a screen where in the future it could be worse where everyone is constantly multi-tasking, you could turn her into an outcast (I'm half joking).

Father who feels guilty while checking his email is much worse that father who feels happy while checking his emails.

1000 years ago the father would watch for an animal to hunt to bring home the tasty food and when this happened - the while family was happy. And father's hunting and fighting times away from his little children was to the benefits and for the happy growth of his family.

Your communication tool today is what your bow was 1000 years ago. You are doing your best.

Feeling guilty benefits your competitors and enemies of your family. Don't do that to your family. Do what you good at and let your children learn from you how mix the joys of creating expressions with the love.

Your happiness and contentment is way more important for little child to feel than absence or presence of your mobile devices or screens.

Do whatever makes you feel in balance and happy and let your child grow surrounded with your love and happiness.

"[contemporary hunter-gatherer women] view many men as more trouble than they are worth. If the men are hanging around, they usually eat more food than they provide, and demand more care than they give one's children."

Mating Mind by Geoffrey Miller referencing Marjorie Shostak

Harry Chapin also wrote about not being around or available. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUwjNBjqR-c

I find myself guilty of this from time to time too. In the end the answer is to model the behaviors we want them to model. If we want them to read, it's ok to read in their presence. If we want them to exercise it's ok to exercise in their presence. We don't have to be 100% on in servant mode, but it's good to be connected. I think the TV is awful as background noise. Music is not so bad.

Another poster in another thread said, you can only have one hobby as a parent. That captures the reality.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6177254

Unfortunately, I think advertising is far too lucrative for this to ever happen. Where there is space, there will be ads, whether it's print, screen, virtual or what-have-you. I don't see the world getting any less cluttered in the next 15-20 years. Granted I live in a city and have for the last ~10 years, so my views my be skewed.

The difference between adults and children is that we do it ourself, and thus forgive people when they do it. (Or we don't do it ourself, and don't forgive other people.)

Children don't have any concept of what that box is, they just know it's not them.

This made me wonder what fathers would write about their children when I was young (1970),

Probably the same thing, but it would be the Sunday papers instead. We've always had distractions that divide our time. I remember my father spending hours in his shed carving rocking horses, or sitting on the couch with a gigantic tapestry he was working on.

Not that I don't think the author has some very valid points, and it's certainly going to make me think next time I'm at my laptop and one of my kids comes into the room.

If you're not careful screens will let you live an entire life of not being present.

Makes me think of people who go on vacation and see everything through a camera viewfinder (well, now a screen).

This strikes me as far too neurotic. You'll never get through the challenges of parenting if you are second guessing yourself and scolding yourself for such minor infractions. You have decades of parenting ahead of you. Smart phones and computers aren't going anywhere. While yes, I think you probably shouldn't be getting your phone out while actively watching your child, the other things you mention like canceling your cable are probably over the top.

Here's reality; you're gonna screw up. You're going to make mistakes. And your own neurosis will in some fashion affect your kid(s). This is unavoidable. You won't know the full extent to which you've truly damaged your child until they reach adult hood.

But here's the other part; they will also surprise you with how wonderful and amazing they become despite your short comings.

It's important to take parenting seriously and do the best you can by your child. But it's also important to realize you're a human being and to take time to enjoy life and cut yourself some slack along the way. Otherwise you're just going to drive yourself insane.

Getting rid of cable during the younger years is smart. The American Academy of Pediatrics recommends zero screen time for babies younger than 2 years old and there is strong evident to support limiting screen time = healthy brain development in the very young.

http://www.aap.org/en-us/advocacy-and-policy/aap-health-init...

The AAP recommends that parents establish "screen-free" zones at home by making sure there are no televisions, computers or video games in children's bedrooms, and by turning off the TV during dinner. Children and teens should engage with entertainment media for no more than one or two hours per day, and that should be high-quality content. It is important for kids to spend time on outdoor play, reading, hobbies, and using their imaginations in free play.

Television and other entertainment media should be avoided for infants and children under age 2. A child's brain develops rapidly during these first years, and young children learn best by interacting with people, not screens.

This is exactly how I raise my children.

Well, it's what I was going to do.

Then I had kids.

(I still demand no TV in the kids' room. Our household only recently got a second teevee, and it's in no one's bedroom.)

My son will never have a TV or computer in his room. We will severely limit his TV intake and computer usage. We are active adults, hiking, biking, YMCA events, and will include our son in as much outside activities as possible.

That said, I think it's silly to go to such an extreme and do "zero" screen time. My wife regularly let's my 15 month old play Fischer Price games and he's probably watched three or four Dora the Explorer episodes and a handful of Nihau Kai-Lan shows and maybe a couple Curious George shows. He doesn't seem to be able to watch an entire episode for the most part, and he is still way ahead on development milestones.

Could he be further along? Who knows, he could be further behind. I think it is as bad to be neurotic about these things as neglectful and uncaring to be honest.

>My son will never have a TV or computer in his room.

Just curious, did you?

Great question, IMO, but nope, TV was entirely a family event that happened in the living room. I did, however, spend many hours in my room reading books.

edit: And didn't have computers until I was in my teens. I think my first computer was when I was in 9th grade or so, and they were like 3,000 bucks, so no chance of us having one of our own in our room, lol.

TV is ok. i bet most people here do not watch TV as adults. But using the computer and less passive screens, i bet everyone here is only here because they started using computers earlier than the average. So limiting those for a child seems foolish.

> But using the computer and less passive screens, i bet everyone here is only here because they started using computers earlier than the average. So limiting those for a child seems foolish.

Great point. I'm going to make sure my kids are brought up learning how to code etc even younger than I was.

I really don't appreciate the title of this piece. The author knew full well people would expect a piece about being spied upon by the NSA when submitting this.

Not cool.

There's a simple hack for parents who really want to spend quality time with their kids. Focus on quantity instead.

Parents who spend a lot of time with their kids by accident will have quality time with them. Think of the most meaningful time you spend with you mom or dad. Was it the time you went with them to Disneyland, or when they played with you in the yard with cardboard refrigerator box?

I was doing the same thing with my kids. I solved it by leaving my phone in a basket in my bedroom away from where I played with my kids. Every time I got the urge to check, the distance stopped me. Every time I forget to put my phone away, I always break down and check...

I shot a video using my iPhone, of my 2.5yr old talking to grandma on my wife's iPhone, telling her to look for "dumb ways to die" on YouTube after watching it on the iPad.

Not sure "no screens" policy makes life better...

The curiosity will only grow and grow. I put my phone away and only check it occasionally, when my daughter is not around. I was forced to do this b/c we started letting her play games on the phone. Now as soon as she sees it she wants to play games on it. I can't even take a picture these days w/o some crying b/c she wants the phone. We try to limit her screen time to less than an hour a week. I don't know how others can be frequently on the phone around a toddler w/o temper tantrums. My daughter is 19 months old.

Google Glass solves this problem.

No it doesn't.

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