The Men Who Want AIDS—and How It Improved Their Lives
out.com
out.com
Of course, the second thought is then "Once we know that, we can adjust the benefits ratio to discourage people from willingly contracting HIV."
America shits me to tears. As someone who has lived all over the world, the absolute cruelty of the American system never fails to baffle me. I love a lot of things about the US but the idea that the suffering that lead this man to contract the disease in the first place is just what he deserved because he was unlucky enough to be poor . . . well, words fail me.
Is this some new turn of phrase I haven't heard before?
I spent some time in Southeast Asia. The government-supplied social net of the US is absolutely fantastic in comparison, though culturally I found that there the social safety net is the extended family. One didn't need to be a certain socioeconomic level to get help if necessary.
You don't have to actually be dying of AIDS to get social services, such as public housing, in America.
In NYC, a single person is eligible for public housing if their income is less than $48,000. [1]
For reference, the median income in NYC is $49,461. [2] That implies nearly half of NYC is eligible for public housing, not to mention a myriad of other social services. Contracting AIDS entitles one to social services in addition to what is normally available.
[1] http://www.nyc.gov/html/nycha/html/assistance/income.shtml [2] http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/20/nyregion/rich-got-richer-a...
There is no cruel paradox here. I cannot begin to understand the level of lazyness, lack of self responsibility, and sense of entitlement that would lead someone to think that contracting full blown AIDS would be the 'only way' to live more comfortably.
This is the line of thinking that only comes from someone that would quite literally rather die a slow painful death than work and support themselves.
There's a big difference between a poor person and someone who thinks contracting a fatal disease is a better approach than finding a job and actually supporting themselves.
But hey, if someone has resigned themselves to leech off society under any circumstance maybe having them contract a fatal disease willingly is simply natural selection at work.
http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2013/08/13/friends-of-aca...
Surely you're not implying that getting AIDS is in any way a good idea.
Willing to relocate? How about able to relocate? Moving to a distant land is a non-trivial exercise.
I seriously don't get your attitude in this thread. You're basically declaring that various serious problems in society are not, in fact, problems at all. According to you, as best I can tell, every single poor or homeless person out there has no obstacles to getting out of their predicament if they just did some obvious things like find employment. This leads me to ask: why do these people exist at all, then? Nobody wants to be poor, so if they can get out of it so easily, why are they still poor?
This is one of those instances where the mere existence of a problem indicates that it's hard to solve, while you're blithely proclaiming it to be trivial.
Either way, getting a stable living situation after you haven't had one is a tremendous relief.
I've lived in a poor neighborhood before. If you haven't, and clearly you haven't, then you have no freaking idea. I've never been that poor, because for me, you're right, there's always a job; I'm educated and white. But for this guy and for a lot of other people I've known personally, this simply IS NOT TRUE.
Even your blithe assumption he can relocate is naive. His situation might be worse than a dog's in a shelter, but at least he understands it. He knows the people, and may even have some family - even if his family hates him, they're still his people! You think this uneducated black man whose job history consists of getting fucked for cash is just going to pick up and move to North Carolina and get a nice Webdev gig surrounded by a bunch of strangers?
How about we take this the other way around. I'm assuming you're white. Let's say you relocate to the depths of Harlem or maybe the south side projects in Chicago, rent a place, and start going door to door looking for work. Is that something you can imagine working out well?
But be that as it may, there's not ALWAYS a job available if you're willing to accept a low enough wage and relocate. The fact that you believe this already means you simply have no expertise in being disadvantaged.
So please don't come to me and tell me I have no idea what it's like to work my way up from rock bottom.
There's a world of separation between the jobless and the homeless. No amount of willpower can bridge that divide, only fortune.
Or The Wire where a kid who 'got out' decides to come back.
There are many factors that play a role in the options we have, and the strongest factors have nothing to do with what's objectively best.
Psychologically speaking, it's a bit dangerous (and too easy) to say that poor people should just stop living their poor lifestyles and leave their poor friends and poor family for a world totally unknown to them. This is also true for addicts, or homeless people. I've come to know quite a few of both, and if anything I've started to respect the difficulty of their situation.
But I have no sympathy for someone who thinks contracting AIDS is a way to improve their lot in life.
I spent several years growing up in small-town Wisconsin. The idea of moving to another place is just unfathomable to a lot of people who live in a place like that. Not just hard, like, oh, that would cost a lot of money and be a lot of work, but unfathomable, the way buying a house on Mars would be.
So much of our outlook is driven by our experience and we don't even realize it unless we encounter the right circumstances. If you grew up in one little area and that's all you know and that's all anybody you know has ever known, then leaving it is a big deal. Some people will pull it off, but many others simply won't be capable.
Whenever anyone brings up the possibility of creating a proper safety net in the US, or if anyone just mentions that, hey, there are some people in our country living in unbelievably shitty conditions--there's always someone ready to say "no, they deserve it, they're just lazy."
It boggles my fucking mind that someone on HN, who's probably pretty well-educated, who's probably living comfortably on a cushy tech job, could say with a straight face that poor people, as an aggregate, are lazy leeches who would rather get AIDS than get work as dishwashers.
A nontrivial fraction of people who read this article respond with scorn for the people involved, rather than concern about the system that puts people in these positions. That squashes any possibility of political or social change.
Look at some of the other comments in this thread--"why don't they just get jobs?" Willful ignorance at its worst.
Poor people aren't lazy. But someone who would rather contract aids than work IS a worthless lazy leech.
So am I to believe that you think all educated people working in the tech industry hold far left views? That is naive beyond description.
>[the people in the article] would quite literally rather die a slow painful death than work and support themselves
And that argument is stupid. I don't care if you call yourself a conservative, people will call you out if you say something stupid. My point wasn't that you should be a liberal, my point is that you're smart enough to know better.
You keep saying these people would rather have AIDS than work. You're naive for thinking that they have the option to work; they would rather have AIDS than starve in a gutter.
*I know because I used to wash dishes.
Seriously, though, I'm pretty sure they've already had that idea, and I'm pretty sure there are reasons beyond laziness why most of these people haven't carried it out.
If you're desperate enough, sabotaging yourself to qualify for a need-based social program eventually becomes the objectively optimal thing to do. This is the first I've heard of that sabotage extended all the way to intentionally getting AIDS and intentionally not seeking treatment, though.
Typically these stories can be dismissed for the anecdotes they are. I have a handful of right-winger friends who love sending me some article from the Wichita Star or something where some woman got promoted at her job, lost her Medicaid benefits, so she quit her job, and now gets even more benefits, or something, and RAAAR $16 TRILLION IN DEBT WE'RE ON THE ROAD TO GREECE MAKERS TAKERS SMALL BUSINESS THIS COUNTRY IS GOING TO HELL.
No, this country has decided it's beyond the state's responsibility to provide food, shelter, and medicine to everyone. Instead, various state and local programs only provide it those things to a fraction of the people who need it, usually based on some seemingly well-intentioned criteria. And then some people have the kind of lives where being a homeless prostitute without AIDS is worse than having a roof and having AIDS, so they decide to do that.
You can accept that any program like this will induce morally hazardous behavior in some people, and look for objective information vs. sensationalized anecdotes to see if that program needs reform. You can also realize any need-based program will almost always introduce said morally hazardous behavior, and the problem is that we underfund these programs so that they need this need-based criteria to begin with.
Or you can push to eliminate all these programs because you think they turn everyone into lazy welfare AIDS-seeking moochers, and the good news for you is there's already a political party in the US that pretty much supports all that.
So let me get this straight ... for thousands of years, support for the needy was provided by local religious institutions and local efforts. People gave alms, etc to their local church and then the church rendered assistance. Essentially, the community helping itself. Neighbors helping neighbors, albeit indirectly to preserve dignity.
Here come the neo-liberals. Anything even remotely related to religion needs to be eradicated, so we can't keep doing things the way we used to. Now we tax the shit out of anything that moves and dispense assistance on a federal level, from Washington DC, thousands of miles away, by some faceless bureaucrats. How deranged do you have to be to think that's an improvement?
Guess what? The poor and needy were provided assistance long before the welfare programs came to the fore in the 20s and 30s. They were provided assistance through private channels, through their community. Unfortunately, due to taxation to provide for similar programs on a federal level, quite a few of those channels have dried up. Unfortunate indeed.
Nope, they just nail them with a tax audit. Power corrupts regardless of who wields it.
Also, I wasn't proposing theocracy. Read what I wrote again. You weren't paying attention.
Are you one of those people who support the NSA? I really didn't think I'd meet one on HN.
for thousands of years, support for the needy was provided
by local religious institutions and local efforts.
For thousands of years, inadequate support was provided. People used to die in the streets. Furthermore, such support has historically not been provided to unpopular minorities, unless you consider slavery "support". Here come the neo-liberals. Anything even remotely related
to religion needs to be eradicated
Show me a single poll of which the results show that more than 2% of participants want "anything even remotely related to religion" to be "eradicated". Now we tax the shit out of anything that moves
Okay, now I think you're just trolling.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Historical_Mariginal_Tax_R...
No, for thousands of years, we had an economic system in which the needy who were physically able to work were likely to be able to do work in the most common jobs available (largely, barely-better-than-subsistence farming), where the needy that weren't able to work might get some support from religious institutions (not necessarily local), individual authorities or, where it existed, the state, or elsewhere, but mostly just suffered and died. (And were often criminalized.)
Evolutions of property arrangements (including those that enabled capitalism), population density, and industrialization eliminate the easy access to basic work in the developed world (in exchange for more productive work where work was available) before much changed in the way that the "needy" were treated.
> Here come the neo-liberals. Anything even remotely related to religion needs to be eradicated, so we can't keep doing things the way we used to.
Neoliberalism [1] is not particularly concerned with religion, pro or con, nor does it generally support replacing private charity with public social support (it generally opposes public social support, and isn't particularly enthusiastic about private charity, though forced to choose between the two -- or just as a convenient way of selling opposition to public support -- neoliberals will back private charity, including religious.)
"No, this country has decided it's beyond the state's responsibility to provide food, shelter, and medicine to everyone." - this does seem to be true, and I view this article as a criticism of this decision, not as a criticism of the programs these people are seeking to get benefits from.
I think this story highlights the absurdity of not having unqualified assistance for housing, food, and healthcare. If people take this as a reason to eliminate these programs, well... I'm sure people will view it that way - well, I don't know what to say about it. I mean, I can at least agree with this: "THIS COUNTRY IS GOING TO HELL."
I would put forward another criticism of need based programs which is positive, and has recently been made with increasing frequency. This argument is that the nature of many programs induces dependence among the recipients; the principal example of this being US federal disability benefits. These benefits can be permanently forfeited if the recipient earns more than a given amount over a certain time frame, which forces the recipient to consider trading in a long term cash flow (disability benefits) for greater income with uncertain future prospects (a job). The result is that many people with difficulty working, who could do some limited work are disincentivized from ever taking a job; this is especially apparent during recessions. [ http://economics.mit.edu/files/7388 ]
The other problems you can have when you begin to hand out government aid are moral ones, which you may agree with. Those who are lazy and collect benefits get to take from those who work hard; even more troubling is that the workers have no way to force the slackers to do anything, while the slackers can use regulation and taxation to manipulate the workers. This argument does not address people who are unable to support themselves.
What I don't understand is why we don't have programs (say unemployment benefits) where when you finally get work, the money you earn above the cut off replaces need based compensation dollar for dollar until you're free of the system. It makes no sense to cut people off the soon as they get a job when the job pays less than the program.
One of the oldest running tales is of the 16 year old getting pregnant in the hope of getting her own "council flat" (i.e. a place to live) rather than because she wants a baby. This just seems like the more extreme end of the same situation in a country that's not quite so forthcoming with social benefits.
I've stopped reading ages ago, and they really only represent and advertise for white gay male.
If you really want to see what white gay men do for "fun", watch (better not really, it's a disgusting true story of a "chaser") Todd Verow's "Bottom". Totally not the clean cut wholesome gay white male these publications like to promote, and equally disturbing.
PS, was going through the comments on out.com, and faire enough, one David Kelsey seems to express the same pov. I guess it's not a coincidence.
(I can't comment there's because I'm not on FB, nor any of the other alternatives needed for commenting. AOL, really?)
TL;DR Talk about First World Problems.