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The problem with your thought experiment is that you don't help poor people by throwing money at them. (See the article referenced below). You help them by creating institutions which help children develop important cognitive skills and avoid making poor choices in the first place. Education, adequate housing, policing, parenting skills, etc....

If you grow up in an environment where getting good grades is actively discouraged by your peer group, your parents have poor/counterproductive parenting skills, you consequently have low cognitive abilities, and you have every incentive to drop out and sell drugs, then it's possibly too late, and no amount of cash in your pocket is going to help you. But if you have good parents, grow up in an environment that values education and that's safe enough and free enough of distractions so that you can learn, then you'll likely be in your category #2 above. Small advantages that begin at infancy accrue and snowball over a lifetime, and that's one reason why middle/upper class kids _generally_ tend to grow up to be middle/upper class adults.

From http://chronicle.uchicago.edu/970417/mayer.shtml --

"Increasing parental income not enough, according to study Increasing parental income alone is not enough to break the cycle of poverty, according to a new study by Susan Mayer, Associate Professor in the Irving B. Harris Graduate School of Public Policy Studies.

Even if their incomes increase, parents who have experienced persistent periods of poverty often have such problems as chronic illness and low cognitive skills that make it difficult for them to help their children escape poverty, Mayer reports in her new book, What Money Can't Buy: Family Income and Children's Life Chances. . . . The study shows that non-monetary factors play a bigger role than previously thought in determining how children are able to overcome disadvantage, Mayer explained. "Parent-child interactions appear to be important for children's success, but the study shows little evidence that a parent's income has a large influence on parenting practices.""

So in answer to your question, what would I do to help the poor, I'd say it'd have nothing to do with spending my money and everything to do with spending my time, say, tutoring and hopefully inspiring a child.

spending my time, say, tutoring and hopefully inspiring a child.

Thanks. You are one of the few who have answered without spinning off somewhere else.

By the way, I do not know the answer to my question -- that's the reason I asked. I'm interested in hearing people's responses. I'm dubious as to your "creating institutions" statement -- it sounds wonkish, the type of thing to come out of a study or institute without being overly practical.

From observing myself and others who have come out of poverty, it is not intelligence, or money, or luck that makes the difference, most of the time. It's having personal one-on-one examples as a child, having a good attitude, and basically trying and not giving up. 90% of life is simply showing up.

I can observe, however, that western societies are creating multi-generational poverty. LBJ sat on a porch in Appalachia 40 years ago and declared a war on poverty. Since that time the U.S. has spent trillions and has the same basic poverty rate it had before. In fact, the same place LBJ stood is still an impoverished area.

I feel like there is a long, long, long way from where the politicians and spin doctors are, and what makes a real difference. I am also dubious that you can take the things that work and scale them. In the end, I think it comes down to religiously-motivated, local groups, personally trying to make a difference one person at a time. I don't think any of that scales very well. Although some people (mainly the ones looking for funding) would like us to believe it would. But that's just my opinion. I would like to do more -- hence my original comment.

I always say: to make a man out of your child spend half the money you're spending on him and spend twice the time with him. (not my line but liked it)

I also think that money for eradicating poverty would be better spent on scouts who can spot people or groups or communities worth being helped instead of helping them all.

My response would have been essentially the same as msluyter's. Strong education systems, I believe, can provide the examples you mention are needed for a child, the examples that inspire the positive attitudes and strong work ethic. I was lucky enough to grow up with incredible parents who knew exactly what to do, so it's no surprise I'm doing much better than they did. For the kids who aren't as fortunate (and I am of course not blaming the parents, how could they know?), your peers and your school life are a dominant influence in life.

Some examples that may inspire some hope: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/08/opinion/08brooks.html (or for a more reputable but lengthier description of the same program, http://www.economics.harvard.edu/faculty/fryer/files/hcz%204... )

http://uei.uchicago.edu/

That sounds artificial. Prove to me that there are only those 3 cases and outcomes.

You are essentially saying is that only addicted, mentally ill or people with abusive spouses are permanently poor, everyone else is just temporarily poor. I think that indicates a monumental disconnect with reality.

Fact is, someone can work full-time in this country and still not be able to feed their family. How are they going to get ahead when not working because you are looking for a better job (let alone getting more education) would mean not feeding your family in the meanwhile?

I thought it particularly telling that you think case #3, "trapped by circumstances like medical bills" can not be fixed by money. Universal health coverage would take care of that one, for sure.

I'm glad you weren't in charge when I was a #2. I made some bad decisions, like starting a family too early, and had some bad luck when I was young. When I reached the point where I was ready, I asked the Government for help and I received it in the form of assistance and college grants. I also worked and now have a large student loan payment, which I pay with a smile every month.

I earned a B.S.M.E, worked as a professional engineer and then switched to IT, because I wanted to and because I could, partially as a result of having a degree. This improvement in my life also enabled me to develop a startup in my spare time. I know that it would have been 10,000 times more difficult or impossible to do it without that help and opportunity.

The great part for the good 'ol U.S.A. is that they now have an extremely productive, $30k+/yr. tax paying citizen who is giving and will continue to give a great return on their investment. Assuming I don't get hit by a bus. ;)

(flooha)I'm glad you weren't in charge when I was a #2.

(Daniel) I'm not saying don't help people.

I'm asking you what you personally would do.

Stick to the topic, guys. If you don't like the 3 choices I presented, fine. Provide your own. I didn't say people couldn't move between scenarios. Still stick to the topic. What would you personally do to make one person stop being poor?

To say you're glad I wasn't in charge assumes you know me. You do not. I've made my way from homeless to a pretty good life as a consultant. But telling my story is not the point of this question. Neither is any of the other smoke that is getting thrown up.

It's anecdotal and just one point on the graph, but it is absolutely on topic and a valid response to your post.

You ask what I would personally do to make one person stop being poor? Well, it worked for me, so I would give that person the opportunity and the means to do so in the form of money for higher education. You can't personally teach the masses one on one.

I do agree with some of your points, but it seems that you are asserting that money isn't the answer. I disagree. If college were free then money wouldn't be the answer.

"If college were free then money wouldn't be the answer."

But college is free. MIT is free for people who make less than $100k/year. Stanford is free for people who make less than $100k/year. Amherst is free for people who make less than $60k/year. Most other private colleges will give full rides for people of the income level that this article is talking about.

Is money still the answer?

free for <s>people</s> Americans who make less than

I'm fairly certain it extends to international students as well - I had friends at Amherst whose families made less than $3000 annually (that's like 1/4 the poverty line in America), and there's no way they would've been able to afford it if they didn't have some serious scholarship money.

This is only true for the best schools with a decent amount of money. As bloomberg noted in a piece last month, a lot of schools on the cusp are in big trouble financially and depend on tuition to make up the difference. For most of these schools, students making under whatever the line is, don't get full aid like they might at Harvard, MIT, etc.

Also, this only extends to international students at, again, the best schools. When I applied for college several years back, I think it was only five schools that were need-blind to international students (they were also very generous with that aid). There might be more schools that do so now but I can't imagine it's substantially more.

you need better K-12 education for poor areas in order for them to qualify for these "free" university programs.

Yeah, that's what I see as the real problem. I'd really like to see more attention paid to preK-12 education in poor areas, because by the time these kids get to be 18, it's generally too late unless they have heroic individual will. But that means targeted spending - it doesn't necessarily take a lot of money, it takes a moderate amount of money that's well-spent on programs that make a serious impact.

Fair enough. What you have pointed out is that there are not many micro-actions that can help the poor. But, that doesn't mean there aren't any macro-actions that can.

I am in India. I too can't do anything to help the poor but my government sure as hell can (and the good thing, at least for the moment, is that it is doing so).

(For instance, tax money can be and should be spent on policies, subsidies, etc that make education cheaper for everyone and make usury extremely difficult to practice. These are the real ways in which rich nations can help their poor. Seriously, how much money did you give to AIG and friends and how much money would it take to provide free college education for everyone in the US who could get through the selection process?)

Grameen Bank.

> The goal of this experiment is to take away lofty ideals and ask practical questions: just what are we supposed to do that is going to help? Just what really helps and does not hurt poor people? So pick a strategy and pay for it.

I can think of two things the government could do that would help poor people, while not costing anything (this is in the UK, but most probably applies to other countries):

1. Housing. Housing is very expensive in the UK, mostly because of govmt policies (incidently the people making these policies personally profit from them, surprise surprise). Reverse these policies and the cost of a house could easily be reduced to £20,000. -- http://cabalamat.wordpress.com/2009/05/19/housing-policy-and...

2. allow people on low incomes to set up a "microbusiness" that as long as its turnover is less than £2000 a year, doesn't reduce the benefits they get. Any such businesses that currently exist are part of the illegal economy and not paying tax anyway, so the govmt wouldn't lose any revenue. -- http://cabalamat.wordpress.com/2009/05/13/reforming-the-bene...

I'm not saying don't help people. I'm saying that lofty, praiseworthy feel-good rhetoric does not fix a damn thing. Instead everybody just smiles and nods and agrees to spend money. If you or I have a hell of a time fixing one poor person, with direct one-on-one involvement, it is completely ludicrous to expect an impersonal government to do it for us.

This seems like a worryingly general argument.

"If you or I have a hell of a time keeping out a gang of home invaders, with direct one-on-one involvement, it is completely ludicrous to expect an impersonal government to handle policing or national defense for us."

"If you or I have a hell of a time educating someone in a wide array of subjects, with direct one-on-one involvement, it is completely ludicrous to expect an impersonal government to handle schooling for us."

"If you or I have a hell of a time putting out a fire, with direct one-on-one involvement, it is completely ludicrous to expect an impersonal government to handle the fire service for us."

It seems like it could be used to argue for anarchy, effectively.

I don't think it's actually that general, because some of those things are better handled through groups of people rather than on an individual level. That's not to say that government is a good solution, but there are non-State group solutions to things (grocery stores, coops, etc).

I don't think it's actually that general, because some of those things are better handled through groups of people rather than on an individual level.

This is a reasonable point. But bear in mind that DBM's original point is subtly different: he effectively said that because it was hard to deal with poverty on an individual level, it would be silly to let government intervene. Your point looks to be different: that non-state groups can do things as well/better than the state. So the generality of my inference is unaffected.

Whenever tax and "helping the poor" comes up, the argument always seems to degrade to higher taxes <-> bigger welfare checks.

Never underestimate the power of one well placed community center.

I know guys who have had the entire course of their lives altered by one mentor at one afterschool program. A lifetime of welfare checks could not have done so much.

I think you're changing the subject.

As a participant in this thought experiment, you can (and should) use whatever resources you might have available. If volunteering at a community center is the thing, then you would go down there and do that. The question is: given whatever you want, what would you practically do?

I'll touched on the two follow-up questions, but they weren't the point 1) if you've got an answer, why aren't you doing that right now? and 2) do you feel it is moral to take your best guess for fixing poverty and push it on the rest of us? Would you mandate community center service, for instance, or do you think writing a check for somebody working at a community center has the same effect as somebody who has a life purpose for doing it? (and how would you tell the difference? What if there's simply not enough people who really care about working at community centers? What then?)

Those are great follow-ups, and the conversation should continue along those lines, but really, the point was what practically was supposed to make a difference if you personally had to do it. Not some generalities about some program that looked good on 60 minutes. What you would go do right now to make one person not poor. There's Bob. Bob is poor. Go make him not poor.

Not all poor people are poor for the same reason suggesting any one solution would work in all cases is stupid.

I have helped several people become less "poor" by:

1) Teaching money management skills. The payback for a poor person investing 20$ to avoid a late fee can be huge. Poor people are so used the "fees" that it often quietly crushes them.

2) Suggesting a change of vocation. Not all low skill jobs pay crap.

3) Loaning money for an unexpected expense that was going to cost someone their new job. Their pay bump was going to cover the cost but they need the money before they could get to work...

4) Convincing someone to stay on Methadone.

PS: Ok, in a thought experiment I guess you could hand them a million a week which would solve most peoples problems, but that does not really scale.

I thought maybe we could use some of the taxes to build some community centers and hire some staff.

If volunteering at a community center is the thing, then you would go down there and do that. Can do. have done. But most of my volunteering has been fixing stupid "for want of $100" problems. Volunteers like the ones you speak of can line up but if there's no electricity, it doesn't matter.

do you feel it is moral to take your best guess for fixing poverty and push it on the rest of us? No. I feel its moral to use what science we can muster and use a results based approach to choose very wise uses of the limited resources we have.

There's Bob. Bob is poor. Go make him not poor. To help Bob (in this case) would require time travel. But Bob's son is a whole different matter. I can't cure stage 4 melanoma, but I can tell people to wear sunscreen.

I met a guy on the streets of Berkeley years ago. I gave him some money and he smiled a warm, effusive smile. He said it was his birthday. We started talking. He had been on the streets for a couple months, the result of discrimination. He was black, but he said it wasn't that -- it was age discrimination. He was in his 50's and as a hospital orderly, he couldn't move as fast as the young competition. He found himself out of work, ran through his savings, and then, once he was on the street, had a big problem giving out an address for a job application, getting cleaned up for the interview, etc.

I ran into him once a week, giving him as much as I could. $20 sometimes. Then I stopped seeing him. About six months later, I ran into him again, but it took me a while to recognize him. He looked great. A guy was reconstructing a house in the Berkeley hills and after meeting him, got him some work on the project. It was all he needed.

The U.S. spends a lot in taxes, and that money goes to such areas as defense, where "throwing money" at a situation is considered the norm, not the exception. Halliburton has gigantic, fat contracts in Iraq, for example.

I would rather we "throw money" at our neighbors when they're down on their luck, and donate money for tanks and B2 bombers. There's Iraq. Iraq is fucked. Go make it not fucked with your own money.

> I met a guy on the streets of Berkeley years ago...

That's a really heartwarming story. Unfortunately, it's a single data point. We certainly can't expand that to cover all poor people, right?

After hearing people speak at RU meetings (and others), many of them had a single purpose in life: get high, gambling, etc (whatever said person's vice was). I've never personally heard of a perfectly fine individuals thrown out onto the streets, though I don't doubt it happens. However, where are the family members and friends? That would be the first place I turned - I'm not proud (not implying he was).

Side note: If someone is poor because they blew all their money on drugs, then lost their job and found themselves on the streets, I don't want to "throw" money at that problem. Sure, I'll buy a meal/gift card (or other necessities) as I've done in the past, but I'm not blindly trusting someone in that position. I wouldn't expect anyone to blindly trust me.

> The U.S. spends a lot in taxes, and that money goes to such areas as defense ...

Ok, we realize that number is about 20% - where is the other 80% going? There's a lot to fix other than just getting out of Iraq.

You want to know how to fix the problem of dealing with the poor? Change people's hearts. A caring, loving people will do more than any government sponsored program will. Unfortunately, the average US citizen is so far removed from the everday reality many others face. Their only insight into those struggles are the latest sob story drama of an American Idol contestant (or a Christian Children's Fund commercial). It's pathetic.

>That's a really heartwarming story. Unfortunately, it's a single data point. We certainly can't expand that to cover all poor people

Sit quietly and really ask yourself if you think that was my point. Dan posted something that put the poor into three categories, all of which said, "You can't really help them." And that's a bullshit rationalization. America has little in the way of economic safety nets compared to most western industrialized countries and it shows. America also spends more on defense than every other nation in the world -- combined -- and it shows.

If you change your priorities, you change your results.

Yes. Thank you. You covered everything I wanted to express, but better, and calmer.

Everyone arguing in these threads on HN - a bastion of privilege - should come live in a place like Vienna for a couple months. I've always been an advocate of the idea that a society is only as strong as its weakest member, but you can't know what you're missing in the US until you really experience it.

See the lack of fear in the cashier's eyes. Experience what a society is like when not a single person in it is worrying that he or she might get fired if they miss days of work due to sickness or a child's sickness.

See the total lack of homeless people.

See how it can be when all the sick are cared for, and the poor have good housing -- very nice community housing, that anyone in the country can live in, with a waiting list (poor and needy have priority), keeping them from being slums.

Everything here is better. Everyone here may live with dignity. That makes an enormous difference.

I'm an American a few hours North in Prague. Drop me an email if you come up this way; it's in my profile.

Your argument is unconvincing. You rely too much on the idea that all malleable variables in a person's life are under their control and that they have the knowledge or personal ability to change them and furthermore that if they don't then they deserve the outcome.

I mean, seriously, "No, no, don't help this mother because her child has a chronic disability. It's not going to do anything in the long run." "This dude's poor and is manic-depressive, I don't think we should give him any psychiatric assistance because, seriously, he's not going to STOP being manic-depressive." "This guy over here lost his home because his house burnt down and his insurer is refusing to honor his claim. Don't worry about him! He'll just pick himself up by his bootstraps!"

Fuck off.

A second problem with your comment occurs to me.

We can safely assume that earl and other people in this thread arguing in favour of state support of the needy don't believe that private charity is adequate. (If they did, why would they argue for state intervention?) As such, your comment - which essentially just urges people to go out and commit acts of private charity - is hardly going to convince them otherwise.