The YC Deadline Brings Out Stupid Decisions in Another Applicant Team
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myphdblogged.blogspot.com
Anyway, I think it's a poorly executed attempt at being unethical. If you had a friendship with the person who tried to poach, that person should have realized that he was going to dagger your relationship by trying to steal your partner without even pitching an idea.
Given that your partner is very tight with you (and apparently barely knows the poacher), obviously the incident was going to get back to you . . . one would have expected that the poacher would have tried to partner with you guys or, at the very least, have made a damn compelling argument for why your partner would ditch you.
If you're gonna be shady, you've gotta be strategic about it at least. LOL
This is Arthur Anderson thinking, not Y Combinator thinking.
If you jumped on one of my best people "in an instant", then you better be prepared to set aside resources to deal with me. Are you sure you really want to do that?
And it certainly isn't petty. I don't care how much technical talent you have, if you're not prepared to compete in business, whatever the threat, you're toast. Poaching my people is crossing the line.
And I don't care what Paul Graham, David Duncan, or anyone else thinks. On this issue, you shouldn't either. Ethics is non-negotiable.
"Poaching my people is crossing the line."
Those two statements look juxtaposed to me. It sounds to me like you're the one who isn't prepared to compete if you aren't willing to pose such a threat to your competitors, or to contend with it when you're on the receiving end.
If you're not prepared to deal with the problem of getting and keeping good developers in a highly competitive market, then you're not equipped to deal with running a business in the tech industry. You will be astounded by how hard it is to recruit the very best talent. Middle tier and lesser developers are abundant...it's the cream of the crop, the people who deliver solid, reliable, working code day in and day out, that are difficult to find and to keep.
Welcome to the real world of business, where you have to worry about things like that.
Maybe I'm the one in the wrong place. I certainly hope not. I like it here.
(FWIW: I've been in the "real world of business" since 1979, starting and selling 2 successful start-ups, working on #3. In all that time, nothing has concerned me more than ethical issues. I'd like to think I've been burnt every way possible, but thanks to some of the responses in this forum, now I wonder.)
Because, in this case, it isn't. The article is about a human being, one with free will or some impressive approximation thereof, who received a business proposition.
Another human being is pissed off at the person making the proposition...but the proposition is not his problem. The business he is building and his relationship with his teammate is his problem. The person receiving the proposition may have had some ethics questions to address, like, "What is my responsibility to my teammate and the business we are building?"
The person making the offer was perhaps a bit rude (though his description of the proposition makes it entirely within the bounds of good taste), but not particularly unethical. Nearly every hire you make in the real world is hiring someone away from an existing job. Is it unethical to give someone a better offer? Is it unethical to give someone (who you know to be an employee at IBM or Google or whatever) your business card when you meet them at events and say, "let's have lunch sometime"? Of course not.
Anyway, it's all like a damned soap opera, and the OP made a mistake to post it at all. This isn't college, and nobody cheated on a test.
> Maybe I'm the one in the wrong place. I certainly hope not. I like it here.
A not so subtle way of suggesting that perhaps I'm poisoning the waters with my unethical advice? You'll be fine, as I can't reach through the wires and choke you or anything sinister like that. Unless perhaps you've got a weak heart and respond reflexively to nasty comments like mine, in which case, perhaps a nice hot bath would be more your speed.
As a born nerd, I spent the first half of my life in a world I didn't belong in, being dumped on every step of the way. The world has finally changed for people like me (and you, I presume). Now I LOVE the thrill of competing! When it's fair and right, by offering better value. So when pussies who can't compete fairly resort to underhanded tactics, I take exception and fire right back. Between the eyes.
That's how I interpreted this incident. Can't code? Get a coder. Steal mine right out from under me (if you can), and deal with me. Period. I understand that you don't see it that way, but don't understand why. I'll just leave it at that.
And yes, I think I will have that nice hot bath tonight. Thank you.
FWIW, I don't think either party in this "dispute" emerges smelling very good. We should all just get back to hacking. Get beat in the marketplace fair and square? Try something else. That's the beauty here. Everyone can win.
I'm not among the ones voting you down. I prefer to respond.
> I've seen what happens too many times when people don't play "by the rules" (whatever that means to you).
Sure, and I agree...where we disagree is on what those rules are. My position is that offering someone a job is not a breach of ethics, unless there is a non-compete or non-association agreement in place. The folks in this story are unrelated parties. They have no contractual relationship, and seemingly no friendship to uphold. While it would be rude to "poach" (note that I don't care for this word in this context--it puts the person being offered a position in the role of animal with no ability to think for or look out for his/her own interests) someone from a friends company, it is not a breach of any reasonable code of business ethics.
Good old boys, in the bad old days, might have had gentleman's agreements in place to keep folks from moving between jobs for higher pay and better treatment. But those days and those boys are, for the most part, gone in the technology industry. Employment is at will, and the best talent goes to the highest bidder (by some definition of highest, where Google redefines it to not be raw salary). That is how it is, and how it should be. What you're suggesting is, I believe, the unethical position. When taken to its logical conclusion, you're suggesting that an engineer is the lifetime servant of the company he works for, and has no right to entertain other offers and no one has the right to make other offers.
In a previous thread, you've threatened murder in similar circumstances. I believe we're at odds on this position, as well. ;-)
> I don't think either party in this "dispute" emerges smelling very good.
Here, we agree.
Of course we're not indentured servants and have free will. It's just that this episode smelled real fishy to me. Still does.
Enjoyed the repartee today. Looking forward to the next time. Now, for my bath...
On a side note: I had no idea YC teams were this competitive with each other. I still had the image of one big Nerd Summer Camp that happened to spit out companies and connections. This makes it sound more like the Skull and Bones guys competing to meet the President at Secret Meeting X.
As far as I've seen, they are not (and, neither of these teams is a YC team...they are YC applicants, along with 400+ other teams). The teams tend to be very well-equipped coming into the game and don't really feel the need to break up other teams before they've had a run at it. When a couple of companies fizzled out after the program, I suspect there was a bit of competition for who would get some of the folks from those no longer existent companies, but I'm sure it was friendly (at least I can't imagine any way it could have been otherwise...everybody is still friendly at the events). Others started working on new ideas of their own rather than joining an existing YC company.
But whenever someone comes to work with/for you they're likely precluded for working for/with someone else. Sure there could be reasons not to try and poach someone, but in general I don't think you are responsible for the person/company left behind.
I'm assuming since you are applying for funding from YC that you are looking to start a company (YC acceptance or not). If that is the case, you should be glad that you weeded out someone weak while it is easy and not later on down the road. This could be a valuable lesson: Choose who you work with and trust very carefully!
If this guy can get up and jet on you this easily, think what would have happened after you actually started and financial and emotional stress enters the equation?
My advice is go find someone who you can really trust as a co-founder. Someone you know you can depend on when the going gets tough.
View my response here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=62109
That's not for you to decide. If what they did was unethical, then you have a responsibility to share. If it wasn't, then anything you say won't matter anyway.
I place ethics more important than anything else when considering partners. WAY more important that skill, work ethic, or connections. Take it from someone who has been burned more than once by lying, cheating, stealing, and backroom deals that my partners thought were "no big deal". F*ck 'em. They'll never get a second chance with me. Never.
You're probably tempted to say nothing so you don't offend. Don't. Spare the rest of the community the same potential headache and tell the whole story.
(Personally, if someone tried to poach my partner, only one of us would leave the room alive. This isn't a game anymore.)