What this episode has shown, is that a surprising number of Americans (also commenters here in Hacker News) seem to lack that kind of sense of symmetry.
EDIT: Also some people responding to this comment (whoa).
EDIT: Also some people responding to this comment (whoa).
Even the creation myths of a number of different civilizations consider the natives to be blessed somehow e.g. descended from the gods (compare this to how Americans see the Constitution and the Founding Fathers).
EDIT: Actually, maybe a better example is legend of how Romulus and Remus (the founders of Rome) were raised by a she-wolf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romulus_and_Remus.
The justification invariably seems to be that the oppressed are inferior in some way. Belief in the wrong god, wrong skin colour, whatever.
I think it's probably a fundamental mechanism in the human psyche for coping with the cognitive dissonance of the "do as I say, not as I do" attitude that seems to come naturally as a consequence of power, unless consciously, actively and continuously worked against. Maybe yet another "passing on your genes" instinct?
From wikipedia:
Jefferson envisaged America becoming the world's great "empire of liberty"--that is, the model for democracy and republicanism. He identified his nation as a beacon to the world, for, he said on departing the presidency in 1809, America was:
"Trusted with the destinies of this solitary republic of the world, the only monument of human rights, and the sole depository of the sacred fire of freedom and self-government, from hence it is to be lighted up in other regions of the earth, if other regions of the earth shall ever become susceptible of its benign influence."[37]
Off-topic: that wp [1] page states that american decline started at the end of the eighties. It makes an interesting read as I think the mass media put it around 9/11. Happened before 9/11 but that event crystallized that decline.
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism
Edit:
1. The US declared independence in 1776 and were recognized in 1783. Is 30 years between this and Jefferson statement too much to say "it was there from the beginning ?"
2. What about 1600's and 1700's US religious people and their own beliefs when they established themselves in that new promised land ? How does it relate to "American ideology, "Americanism", based on liberty, egalitarianism, individualism, republicanism, populism and laissez-faire." (from the first paragraph of that wp page) ?
The idea seems related to start-up culture as well (think "two guys in a garage", and "we're different" as well as "war stories from back in the day" during shareholder meetings).
Time will tell if setting ourselves apart sets us up for failure in the long-term.
Maybe 'global superpower' wasn't a metric early America used to inform its (yet unnamed) notion of exceptionalism. Your quote from Jefferson speaks of an "empire of liberty."
This could make sense if you think about it. Young America had just accomplished the almost unthinkable feat of winning independence from the Globe's biggest superpower of the time. In winning this liberty, the young nation began its life by defining itself through this hard won liberty.
In a sense, America's view of what made it special might have been a response to and departure from the concept of a superpower (which it had just cast off).
The characteristics he lists:
>monument of human rights...freedom and self-government...it is to be lighted up in other regions of the earth if other regions of the earth shall ever become susceptible of its benign influence.
His dialogue doesn't involve power or might, but rather rights and example. Even the hopeful spread of America's influence is framed as something to be willingly adopted and benign.
I'm not a student of American history, so I don't know how consistent this interpretation is with the other writings and beliefs of the day, but it's really sad to me how far we've fallen from this ideal. The modern American practitioners of American Exceptionalism seem to have perverted it beyond recognition. Especially when you look at how many of these same administrations prop up dictators when it serves our perceived interests.
The US played a huge role (though not quite as much as Americans would like to think!) in freeing Western Europe from Nazism, freeing Asia from Imperial Japan and freeing Eastern Europe from communism. It played a huge role in reconstructing Europe after WWII and I guess the same is true of Japan.
Unfortunately the HN mix of American libertarians and European liberals is rather myopic on this issue.
Which doesn't mean they played a bigger role in it that URSS.
EDIT: >> However I am grateful I am from a country that fell under US influnce than one that fell under USSR influence.
As a Western European, I can relate. I am just pointing that picking WW2 intervention is not the best way to crown US over URSS.
> As a Western European, I can relate. I am just pointing that picking WW2 intervention is not the best way to crown US over URSS.
It's not the intervention per se, but the spirit of the intervention, what its aims were and what it led to. Those of the US were far superior to those of the USSR from my point of view.
With my limited knowledge in history, I can't objectively compare the spirit/motivations of USA/URSS intervention.
Also, being raised in Western europe, I may be prejudicied, because of the "winners write history" stuff.
That doesn't invalidate the possibility that the winners might have actually been in the right though. It just means you cann't use the fact that a nation won to implicate that the nation was therefore morally right.
But, I think that historical lens you are looking back through time to the War of Independence with might have a little smudge on it obscuring that whole deal with the negroes and the injuns...
That slavery in Russia was abolished 50 years before the US even existed - and even then that was only indentured servant-type slaves, as mass-agricultural slaves were banned 50 years before that?
I don't agree that Russia is less oppressive than the US, but you are cherry-picking your moments in history.
EDIT: forgot to mention the modern-day economy of benefitting greatly from illegal alien workers while ostracising them. And the immense incarceration rate, which is almost 50% higher than Russia's (which is also really high)
One wonders why you cherry-picked then, instead of presenting a more balanced view.
Here I was thinking it was "World War II" not "America saves the world II".
> freeing Asia from Imperial Japan
Yeah Russia had NOTHING to do with that one (except for pushing them out of china, and being as pivotal as the US bombing of Japan in it's ultimate surrender).
> freeing Eastern Europe from communism
Because communist are evil and all that other crap US propaganda teaches us.
> It played a huge role in reconstructing Europe after WWII and I guess the same is true of Japan.
Well yeah, it played a huge role in destroying them as well...
Any more cherry picking you'd like to ad to that list? Invented freedom perhaps?
> Here I was thinking it was "World War II" not "America saves the world II".
America had a huge role in this, not as significant as Americans like to think, but huge nonetheless.
> Yeah Russia had NOTHING to do with that one
Russia declared war on Japan one week before the war was over.
> Because communist are evil and all that other crap US propaganda teaches us.
No need to build a strawman. Just ask yourself whether you would have preferred to live in Western Europe or a Soviet satellite.
> Well yeah, it played a huge role in destroying them as well...
Err .. what?
The USSR defeated the Kwantung Army in Khalkin Gol in like 1939 and then sat on their ass with regard to Japan until August 1945.
Certainly the declaration of war came as a shock to Japan, but Japan would have been much better prepared for war with the USSR had the U.S. not been pushing the Empire back to the Home Islands for the 3.5 years preceding that!
What you're saying here is like saying that Italy had anything to do with defeating France just because they managed to declare war and get some troops across the mountains into France before France finally capitulated to Germany.
American contributions were certainly significant, but it's not the same magnitude. Without American involvement, the Nazis still lose. Without Soviet involvement, we're all speaking German.
Not even the Nazis were uniquely evil.
(For instance, I have been in Romania a bit and have heard/read the stories about how they were broken, after the WW. They had it easier even under the Nazis a few years earlier.)
But you knew all that.
Edit: My point was that if the Soviets really had won the war themselves, as mikeash wrote, we in West Europe would have lost -- more or less as badly as if the Nazis had won.
In any case, the point would be better made to say that the US prevented a Soviet takeover of Western Europe, not that the US defeated the Nazis.
Like to admit it or not but the USA still has a functioning system of laws and an independent judiciary. Disagreeing with those laws or the judiciary is very different from living in a state like Russia.
Aaron Swartz, Eric Snowden, Bradley Manning et al all knew the laws they were breaking and the likely consequences. Those laws are harsh yes, but they chose to fight them by breaking them - they didn't have to. There are legal avenues for whistleblowing, regular criminal prosecutions of government corruption etc.
It's also blissfully ironic that this article praises Russia "following the law" when it comes to refugee status, yet the UK's similar stance re Assange and why he's being kept inside the embassy is lambasted on here.
Sure, if you ignore the secret courts and global spying, that no one seems to be able to challenge in "functioning system".
Again men established those laws and run the "global spying" system. The USA isn't like Russia in terms of the state security apparatus controlling elections. Indeed Hoover's FBI days even managed to pale into comparison with what the Russians are up to today.
FISA and surveillance could be voted out by the elected representatives at any point, indeed it almost happened.
Yeah they are controlling other countries elections instead. Great high moral ground there ;)
> is currently criminalising a whole class of people based on what they chose to do with their genitalia in private.
I do not think you know what you are talking about.
State homophobia in Russia is becoming a thing really fast these days.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6173274
It is probably a bad law, but it certainly not criminalizing people for what they are doing with their genitalia in private. He was probably thinking about Saudi Arabia or Iran, but there is strangely little outrage against them.
In Russia, there is a big crackdown on everything LGBT-related, by the government and the church, and its getting worse every day.
A bit more here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Russia
On the whole, it seems that the US is somewhat less oppressive than Russia, but a lot more than most European countries. Particularly disgusting is that many European countries haven't condemned US behaviour regarding Snowden, and even seem willing to act as US vassals.
And perhaps the assumption holds out, but the secrecy of both governments makes comparisons difficult. Anyway, even if Russia is Orwell's 1984, the US must surely be Huxley's Brave New World.
http://www.prosebeforehos.com/image-of-the-day/08/24/huxley-...
Russia is quickly turning away from [Edit: the road to] democracy, the state seems to become integrated with organized crime. And Russia support some of today's worst mass murderers/torturers.
That is a large lack of symmetry... which you are fully aware of, but ignore yourself.
And no, I'm not arguing that USA, or any other place, is perfect. But there are grades of grey.
Subjects like this, where lots of believers have knee reflex reactions and just hate, don't work on HN or on any non-moderated discussion board. (And that is even before the trolls come out to make fun of the fanatics.)
You're very generous to suggest they've ever been anything like a democracy.
> Subjects like this, where lots of believers have knee reflex reactions and just hate, don't work on HN or on any non-moderated discussion board
Indeed.
Are you arguing for or against symmetry? The US has gotten much better since the end of the Cold War, but we still prop up the House of Saud, for example.
"The dependence of the U.S. economy and the federal finances on war and organized crime is significant and to date enjoys the popular support of the general population.
I have written about the federal governments involvement in narcotics trafficking and financial fraud, and support in the general population for that involvement. Here are four excerpts:
.....
One of the dirty little secrets behind the housing bubble is the long standing partnership of narcotics trafficking and mortgage fraud and the use of the two in combination to target and destroy minority and poor communities with highly profitable economic warfare. This model is global. It is operating in counties throughout the world as well as in US communities."
Other excerpts can be read here: