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Comment by samstave | Hacker News Reader

There is a very subtle, insidious problem with this:

The fact is that this is a psyop - an operation used to legitimize the NSA dragnet in the minds of the world. They are "revealing" this issue to show how they are using the NSA data to "catch the baddy" - so therefore this program has value, RIGHT?

Its too late. This has gone too far. The United States of America is no longer united - it is "us" vs. "them"; it is the people vs the government in that the government is literally tracking everything everyone does. You cannot have freedom under those terms. They are mutually exclusive.

America is officially a police state, though it has been unofficially a police state for a long time.

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The only observation this comment makes --- that use of foreign intelligence to help make domestic criminal cases helps validate the intelligence programs --- is blatantly wrong.

I don't think you understand how propaganda works. I also think you're an apologist.

Well that's super helpful, Sam.

I think I've stated my opinions on this matter very clearly. I also think its pretty clear we don't agree on these issues.

You have a solid grasp of what is technically being done, though I think you are less alarmed at what's already taken place than you should be given this.

The NSA is completely out of control and in a position to blackmail anyone, cut off and control the entire worlds communications and subvert anything they want.

The NSA and the USG are simply telling everyone that we should trust them to be the good guy, just because. While the government has already proven they will torture abuse and murder people with impunity.

These two things are incongruous - we can't have a political system that is proven to abuse and one that claims to be the moral good guy.

No matter how much we attempt to self-delude.

It's not enough for you that we agree that the program is bad. We have to agree for all the right reasons. This is a perfect illustration of why HN is a terrible place to discuss politics.

Here's why: we have a situation where, for once, we've landed on the same conclusion. We got there for different reasons. Instead of looking at that as a great opportunity to learn something new from our differing perspectives, it's something that somehow manages to piss you off. If political discussion doesn't work here, it's certainly not going to work anywhere else.

I'm not getting my wish that discussions like these simply be banned from the site, but maybe we could take a baby step towards civility by not calling people names.

First, I am in no way pissed off.

Second, I actually really enjoy talking about these things with you on HN.

Third, we both get emotional about things we discuss - I recall a thread between us ~2 plus years ago where we were in heated discussion!

And C) - these items are political - but entirely germane to HN as the whole thing is enabled by tech and techies "just following orders" and tech companies "just making more sales".

We are on a very slippery slope; nobody wants to live in danger, but everyone is in danger of government abuse with these programs.

Hey, just in the interest of thwarting a false equivalence: I haven't called you names. You have called me names, on this very thread. I'm not super offended and would still buy you a beer in person, but let's all be clear that we're not supposed to be doing that on HN.

You were never called any names. He said you were an apologist. In reading your postings, your comments do strike me as having an overtone of apology for the surveillance state.

In political matters - the power of government vs. the rights of the individual - most people will fall into one of the two groups as a basic mode of operation for their perceptions and personal philosophy. When governments become tyrannical, as the US government is now proving itself to be, the contrast between the two modes becomes starkly delineated.

Authority vs. Liberty is an ancient human argument that is obviously still being played out. Those of us with an unbreakable attachment to Liberty will see any arguments in favor of the current regime as apologia.

"You were never called any names. He said you were an apologist."

Well there you go.

I think you missed the rather insightful point he was making entirely.

The DEA's use of NSA intercepts "sounds" a whole lot more sensible (catching 'drug dealers') than what may be potentially 1000s of other horrific uses the government is also using this data for.

It absolutely does not sound more sensible for the USG to be focusing the tools of foreign intelligence on its own citizens for drug enforcement. I didn't miss his point; his point is wrong. Using foreign intelligence for criminal justice does the opposite of legitimizing foreign intelligence programs.

Where are you getting "foreign intelligence" from, not only in the article - but in relation to what I am talking about?

>a DEA supervisor intervened and revealed that the tip had actually come through the SOD and from an NSA intercept.

So how is my point wrong? This is trying to prove that the secret use of NSA data to catch baddies is an important function of the program.

Important? Maybe. Legitimate? No. Legitim-izing? Absolutely not. Today's revelations make the NSA's programs even less legitimate.

Super helpful comment, tptacek

This glosses over the fact that "they", the government, is a hugely multi-faceted entity, the vast majority of which is benign in both purpose and operation.

There is only one "they" that matters in this context, the ones with all the power; the NSA.

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