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I can't wait to see the cognitive dissonance from the "natural" people.

On one hand, it could quite possibly replace factory farming and eliminate a huge amount of waste, pollution, and animal cruelty.

On the other hand, it's GMO.

I love seeing True Believers in Movementarianism squirm.

I'm equal opportunity here. I like pointing out the philosophical inconsistencies of dogmatic positivism to your typical Reddit /r/atheist type, or pointing out the failures and corruption of the pharmaceutical industry to the rabidly anti-alt-med people you find in skeptic circles...

Ideology: n.: from the root words "idiot" and "ology," the science and art of becoming an idiot by confusing a model of reality with reality itself.

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Your eagerness for schadenfreude seems poorly thought out, since this is not GMO, it's cell cloning.

Maybe people will object because lab-grown meat is 'gross'. Maybe they will object because it removes such substantial barriers to GMO (the introduced traits don't have to result in a viable individual). Hopefully you'll get achieve some gratification for being an iconoclast when they bring up those objections, though.

PSA: no need to spend the second half you post explaining your contrarianism, it was implicit from the first half.

You wouldn't really call lab-grown meat "genetically modified." We're not actually altering the genomic information at all (yet). You would certainly not call the process "natural" though.

It really would be great to see a split between nautreopaths and vegitarians. I don't understand how the communities have grown so close together.

You can also dislike both Big Pharma and alternative medicine. That removes the philosophical inconsistencies and just leaves you bitter and disappointed.

I love me some dead cow once in a while and have a problem with waste, pollution cruelty etc... and I have concerns about GMO. But this ain't "not cow".

It's still the genetically identical counterpart to the pasture-raised variety without the pasture so how is it "dissonance"?

This cognitive dissonance exists in your head only.

All the skeptics I know are huge proponents of science/evidence based medicine and are, for example, very anti-"Vaxxer" (or is it anti-"anit-Vaxxer"? Whatever, they hate Jenny McCarthy is what I'm getting at here...)

I think you mean conspiracy theorist circles. Very different sort of group, even when they attempt to mimic the language of skeptics.

Why are you assuming that meat consumption is necessary?

At the very least some animal product is necessary (e.g., dairy or eggs).

See: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/21/opinion/21planck.html

Vegetarians can go ahead and argue that vegans are too extreme while vegans fire back that vegetarians are just vegans who lack commitment.

I am vegan and have been for about a year and a half. Animal products are not necessary for a healthy diet. That goes for adults and infants.

http://www.veganoutreach.org/enewsletter/20070523.html Crown Shakur did die because he parents didn't supply him with adequate nutrition, but there's no reason he couldn't have gotten what he needed on a vegan diet.

Plenty of children are raised on a 100% vegan diet and thrive just like children fed with animal products.

Can you link to a study or two that at-least suggest that infants can be raised vegan?

http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/2009_ADA_position_paper.pdf

"It is the position of the American Di- etetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian di- ets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, in- cluding pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes."

Also, http://www.journals.elsevierhealth.com/periodicals/yjada/art...

Just breastfeed! Breast milk is the ideal infant food after all. Crown Shakra was fed just apple juice and soymilk.

that nytimes link showed that vegan breast milk isn't adequate

The second sentence of the article is "His vegan parents, who fed him mainly soy milk and apple juice, were convicted in Atlanta recently of murder, involuntary manslaughter and cruelty."

right but the article goes on to say:

"Yet even a breast-fed baby is at risk. Studies show that vegan breast milk lacks enough docosahexaenoic acid, or DHA, the omega-3 fat found in fatty fish. It is difficult to overstate the importance of DHA, vital as it is for eye and brain development."

There are vegan sources of Omega-3 fatty acids, flax seeds being the most common. And yes, vegan mothers should pay attention to their diet, just like omnivore mothers.

"It is suggested that vegans and vegetarians should use oils with a low ratio of linoleic to linolenic acid in view of the recently recognized role of docosahexaenoic acid [DHA] in visual functioning. If known pitfalls are avoided, the growth and development of children reared on both vegan and vegetarian diets appears normal." http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/59/5/1176S.short

There's a reason why there are practically no vegan power athletes. I was vegan for nearly ten years and I regret it immensely as I now see how badly it set me back.

That said, you're right, with a properly-designed diet you can be healthy and happy. I don't believe you can ever be athletically optimal, however (aside from perhaps pure cardio sports).

Mac Danzig seems to counter your argument that's it isn't possible.

http://www.ufc.com/fighter/Mac-Danzig http://www.mikemahler.com/online-library/articles/mma-traini...

Not really. First, mma isn't a power sport. Second, notice the protein supplementation. Clearly the diet alone isn't cutting it.

Aren't supplements part of your diet? Maybe this is a domain term that operates differently. Many people who aren't vegan that I know take a daily multivitamin, does this demonstrate that their diet alone isn't cutting it either?

Strongest German, vegan: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrik_Baboumian

He became vegan in 2011, after setting records.

I expect the primary reason there are practically no vegan power athletes is that there are few power athletes and few vegans.

>Plenty of children are raised on a 100% vegan diet and thrive just like children fed with animal products. //

Citation? The only children I know [that I can recall] that are brought up in vegetarianism are noticeably "weedy". Shorter than average, low muscle tone, paler skin than their peers. That's completely anecdotal and a very small sample but it informs my demand to see your support for this claim.

Now it's probably quite possible to create a vegan diet with all required nutrients a child needs; but how practical is that and does it happen.

I don't think attacking vegetarian and vegans goes well to your credibility.

Perhaps. I just do it for fun.

> At the very least some animal product is necessary (e.g., dairy or eggs).

And you would be completely, utterly, absolutely wrong:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12826028

"It is the position of the American Dietetic Association and Dietitians of Canada that appropriately planned vegetarian diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases.

"Well-planned vegan and other types of vegetarian diets are appropriate for all stages of the life-cycle including during pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence. Vegetarian diets offer a number of nutritional benefits"

It may not be, but considering how much we enjoy eating it, you would be unlikely to be able to get everyone to stop.

I keep a high level of protein my diet. I've tried veggie burgers and other substitutes and enjoyed them a lot, but I can't replace all my meals with them because they're just so damn high in sodium. Any suggestions?

If you don't want to go full-vegan, whey protein isn't bad. But you shouldn't rely on any one source exclusively.

Full-vegan options include quinoa, beans, lentils, and nuts. But I agree it's hard. You have to eat a lot of these things.

I don't use any protein supplements but I've heard good things about Vega's products http://myvega.com/

+1 to Vega, for sure.

You can also get hemp-based protein as well.

Nuts and beans are both high in protein; quinoa is a complete protein (as is soy) by itself.

I get most of my protein from tofu, honestly. It isn't as protein-dense as beef, though.

This isn't a problem with plant-based protein sources, its a problem with commercially-processed packaged foods. You can get high-protein non-meat protein sources that aren't as heavily processed (e.g., gluten powder, tofu, quinoa, etc.) and prepare them yourself to control sodium levels.

Don't eat veggie burgers then. Eat beans, nuts, tofu, seitan, flax - all of them are low in sodium.

I enjoy eating meat. Deal with it.

Idiot: the guy who looks at the finger and says "fuck the sky"

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