Ask HN: "Dumbing yourself down" around your peers? | Hacker News Reader

Ask HN: "Dumbing yourself down" around your peers?

73 pointsilitirit111 comments

To what extent do you do this and why? How has it affected you, and your relationships with people?

I've been doing it my whole life (I'm 30) because I felt that it would be easier to fit in with most people. So when I hear people confidently repeat urban myths like "we only use 10% of our brains", or "you'll drown if you don't eat an hour before swimming" etc, I don't bother trying to explain why I think they're wrong. Some people take it too personally (because of their ego, perhaps), and if they think you do it too often they tend to avoid your company for various reasons. Then there are times I avoid discussion of a topic completely because it tends to happen at a very superficial level or from a very narrow perspective (maybe because of things like lack of understanding or confirmation bias). I find that when I try to expand on certain areas of discussion I just get blank stares. So I usually just stick to topics like gossip, sport, women, cars, or I let other people do most of the talking. Obviously all individuals (and my relationships with them) are different to a degree, but these are some of the things I tend to see and do.

Anyway, I'm 30 now and I think "dumbing myself down" (at least on an intellectual level) has really taken it's toll on me. I never really had a big problem with managing relationships with people but it's getting to the point where I find conversations with my friends unbearable. eg. Last night I was on my phone reading HN and reddit while a group of us were in a lounge at some club (we had just come from a strip-club). I've vented occasionally about how I felt about this to my mom and she always says I should get new friends. The problem is that part of trying to fit in is emulating the behaviour of your peers. When I was younger, I was hung out with the street-thug type (avoided crime and drugs though). Then I left that for the clubbing and partying scene (took me a while to adjust). After leaving college I found there are very few people with my interests and lifestyle. They usually tend to fall into one group or the other. To put it simply, the one group is smart but boring, the other group is exciting but being around them is a mind-numbing experience. I've tried having two sets of friends but it didn't work out that well. I could also try changing my social circles again but where to next? And I don't really feel like changing my lifestyle again. Perhaps balance is the key, but finding people with the right balance is not that easy.

In the meantime I've resorted back to my (unhealthy) hacker nature. Dark bedroom, bright monitor, and 20 tabs open in a browser.

Anyone else going/been through something similar? How do you cope/are you coping?

View on HN

If you're consistently the smartest person in the room, you probably need one of two things: new friends or a reality check. Possibly both.

The best advice I ever got about picking friends was that you should hang out with the people you want to be like. In your case, you seem to not want to go directly from a strip club to a social establishment and get crunked. Well, there is a fairly simple solution to that...

(UrbanDictionary tells me my usage of "crunked" is wrong. This is what I get for not spending enough time around people who are simultaneously drunk and stoned, I guess?)

> In your case, you seem to not want to go directly from a strip club to a social establishment and get crunked.

I don't mind the partying, but even in a club, a lounge is usually more intimate and people tend to strike up conversations more easily. If a few people out of the group do it it's easy just to say "fuck this bullshit let's party!!!" and you can be relatively sure that the others will agree and the conversation dies. There are times though that people just want to relax and have "serious" discussion (especially if your life revolves around partying). And it's usually these times that I just want to turn off.

[edit] Oh and in case you were wondering, I don't usually go to strip clubs. One of my friends who owns a club was invited to check the place out and a few of us tagged along.

It's funny how a simple "I find most people intellectually boring, what to do?" got a lot of highly up-voted "get off of your high horse, smarty-pants" replies. I suppose the first lesson here is not to let people know you think lowly of them. Otherwise they get angry and stuff, silly bipedals.

You would have had much different replies if you rephrased your question to "Hey, HN is full of great people with interests and values similar to mine. I feel like I found my long-lost solumate, only several hundred of them at once. How do I find / build similar community in real life, so that I can share both bar hopping and code-hacking?".

:-)

> I suppose the first lesson here is not to let people know you think lowly of them.

You are absolutely correct, at least from my perspective (although I don't think lowly of other people in the way you might mean). If possible, I'll edit my original post with my thoughts on this matter.

> You would have had much different replies if you rephrased your question

I know. The problem is that HN represents a small part of my interests, so it's unlikely that we share the same interests or values (especially considering I'm from a 3rd world country - I don't expect that many of you guys can relate to violence and poverty in the way that I can). The reason I chose HN is because I was hoping for responses with more signal than noise. I guess another lesson here is to choose your audience your wisely. And of course be mindful of how you address them.

>> be mindful of how you address them.

Yep, that's what I was getting at. I have a pet interest in "what makes a good presentation" and made an observation that good presentation is the one that makes audience feel good about themsleves. This especially jumps at me when watching TED videos. Funny how that works.

I think you did a good job describing what you do not want. The next step for you is to put at least as much effort into writing down what is it that you DO want. Start with a taxonomy of your interests and see if you can find patterns and groups within. For example here's my list: 1) macro economics & history 1a) corporate governance 2) relational and near-relational databases 3) ultra scale-out systems 3a) synchronization problems 4) mobile devices 5) maps and navigation 6) fine dining 7) psychology of irrational behavior 8) computer hardware 9) style (clothing, interior, articulation) 10) study of sleep 11) study of excersize 12) science of making a good presentation 13) demogrpahics & behavior of groups 14) runnign my own business 15) web technologies (webkit, jscript etc) 16) functional languages 17) epistemology

With interests like these there is no way I will find anyone who is into the same stuff as me. But grouping things together I can address some of my interests at my day job (MS SQL Server), some at my startup project and some at various online communities. There are some topics where I am all by myself. It gets really tough at the overlap areas, e.g. I am deeply convinced that source control problem, sync problem, database problems and ultra scale-out systems are of the same field and need to be studied in concert but I have a hard time getting heard with it. So does it work for me overall? Mostly. The people I hang out with are sharing at least some of my interests so it's never as bad for me as it is for you. However few times a year I have some outlnadish idea, interpretation or a vision that I have no one to discuss with. Generally people shrug it off or get a friendly laugh at my expense. :-) It does feel kinda lonely when that happens. I don't have an answer here, either.

People are social animals. I think as analytical people we forget this aspect of our humanity a lot.

So you need to feed that social part of yourself without doing, time-consuming and mostly pointless things, like getting drunk with the guys and watching naked women dance. If you dig naked women dancing, get HBO. Or just surf the net.

As a consultant, I go through phases of alone down-and-working hacking, when I'm not on a big contract, and working full-time with other people trying to help them when I am on a big contract.

I've found that both of these lifestyles have something positive and negative about them. I need social interaction, yet I crave just doing my own thing and being left alone also. I've found that since I don't value my social needs, I sometimes end up taking just whatever comes along, instead of actively planning. This spontaneity is cool when you're 20. But it gets less and less cool the older you get, for some reason. (Usually after you end up with a decade of spending your free time and you've in the same spot, with the same people, doing the same things you were ten years ago.)

In the past, this has sometimes led to be hanging out with people who are, or at least think they are, exciting. If I were you, I'd find something bigger than yourself to believe in and get involved with it. Church, Boy Scouts, civic groups, environmental groups, politics -- something that you find both intellectually stimulating and where you have a lot of social interaction. Make yourself do this, because you will not think that it will work until you actually do it.

And give up the I'm-so-smart routine. Trust me, you're an idiot like the rest of us, just in a different way. So you have lots factual recall ability? Aside from a promising future as a game show contestant, who cares? People with a great recall ability can be some of the most annoying people on the planet to deal with. Trust me, I'm one of them! Meet people where they are, and relate to them in an honest manner that you both can handle. Sounds like you've got a big of overly-done self importance thing going on. Once again, finding something more important than you and humbly trying to contribute to it could make you more of a person that really is smart and interesting and exciting people, like myself, would want to hang out with. (grin)

Life is about you putting stuff into it, not sitting on your ass waiting to see what comes out of it and then criticizing what you get by default. Sorry to rag on you so much -- you probably don't deserve it, but geesh, you're 30. Get a better attitude and lifestyle already.

Great response! I didn't read this until after I made my response, but I couldn't have said it any better myself.

Daniel, sometimes (not always) when I read your writing, I wonder if we were separated at birth. Sure looking forward to meeting you someday.

What can I say? I'm a karma whore. I just restate the obvious and bask in the upvoting love. ;)

Seriously though, I thought long and hard about hitting the submit button. Too many times somebody comes to the group with an honest question and then we rag all over them. It's easy to be critical! As hackers we are really good at finding faults.

But I tried to put myself in his shoes. After all, he came for some feedback. I thought the best thing to do was try to give it to him as honestly and as kindly as I could.

The feeling is mutual! Look forward to meeting you as well some day.

> > give up the I'm-so-smart routine. Trust me, you're an idiot like the rest of us

> What can I say? I'm a karma whore. I just restate the obvious and bask in the upvoting love.

It's weird that insulting the OP and myself is a method of karma whoring. Anyway, downvoted for being so pessimistic and then calling your ideas "obvious" which is arrogant (and moments after you implied the OP is arrogant by saying he overestimates himself). Also "trust me" is a non-argument that makes you sound slimy.

I think you misunderstood what I've said, or I wasn't clear enough.

In my opinion, I added nothing much of value aside from simply re-assembling the ideas everybody else already had. Arrogance was never my intention. I'm simply saying I don't see much new that I added. It's a reply to a complement -- thanks, but it wasn't that big of a deal. This type of sentence construction happens all the time in normal conversation.

If you're insulted, I apologize. I'm also confused. Where are you in any of the parents of this comment for me to insult you? You've got one comment on the page, and as far as I can tell, it's not even related to any of mine.

And saying I sound slimy is out-of-bounds. I'll end this here. I replied simply because I have no idea what in heck you're talking about and thought maybe I had done a poor job of explaining myself.

"an idiot like the rest of us" insults me. I am one of the rest of us but prefer not to be called an idiot.

Regarding arrogance, saying your ideas are obvious (obviously true) is arrogant. Whether you intend for the statement to be arrogant is irrelevant to whether it is arrogant.

Saying things are "out of bounds" and therefore refusing to consider them is out of bounds in rational conversation.

My guess is: none of this is you communicating poorly or me misunderstanding. Rather, it's that your statements have meanings beyond the ones you had in mind while writing them.

Perfect example of sarcasm not translating well in this format. I got it. And used my one vote to go back up.

ma gavte la nata (look it up).

So, it's an insult.

Go troll somewhere else. An entire post that's an insult that people have to google shouldn't be posted here.

> But I tried to put myself in his shoes

I really appreciate the effort, but I think you've misinterpreted some key things. Much of what you said doesn't really apply to me or the problem I'm having. I don't blame you, after all you only had my input to go on. Your feedback was valuable to me in trying to improve my communication skills though.

That's a pretty good response. Intelligence has nothing to do with intellectual abilities. 'Idiot savants' can do brilliant and amazing things. The smartest people in the world have trouble remembering where they put their glasses. Some people can recall every detail of every minute of their lives.

People are simply different. The people that feel that they are smarter than others are often way down the line. The really smart people are the ones that want to learn everything from everyone.

As it turns out, when you're always trying to be the teacher, you miss out on many of life's lessons.

That's a very good point. Perhaps that also adds to the nonviolence of the Engineering Dance. Less intelligent people want to maintain power by being the top dog and more intelligent people want to learn from those above them and therefore be the bottom dog where there is more room to grow and "move up" so to speak.

If you take it a step further, there's always things that people are better at than you. Accordingly, you are constantly learning from everyone around you.

Unless you're always the smartest person in the room.

Intelligence has nothing to do with intellectual abilities.

I don't think this is quite accurate, but it's vague, and I can't really tell which one of these you are ascribing your examples to. In any case, intelligence and intellectual ability are multi-faceted. The ability to recall random facts may be a facet of intellectual ability, but it is tangential to intelligence. The ability to comprehend, and to be creative and synthesize new ideas, are both an aspect of intellectual ability and an aspect of intelligence. They do have something to do with one another, but in your defense, I don't think they are the same thing.

The really smart people are the ones that want to learn everything from everyone.

Agreed. But this hits on a conundrum I and a lot of geeky friends I have run into; this desire to learn everything from everybody can irritate people. It can lead to asking questions that probe for a deeper understanding, but instead elicit a scathing response demanding that I or whoever stop judging the person and what they believe. The usual reaction I have is confusion, and a wondering how asking questions can be turned into passing judgment. I can see how, if one is not careful, having this happen enough can breed a sort of smug prejudice that people who react this haven't thought about much of anything. It might be accurate for some, but assuming it for those that are not will force you to miss on many of life's lessons, as spkthed pointed out.

Your examples are accurate, but they miss the point: there is some correlation between different intellectual abilities, such that being good at math does predict being good at detecting analogies, or understanding a document (just not as well as it predicts being good at specific kinds of math).

People are different, but some people are generally smarter. Doesn't mean that someone generally smart, but bad at X, can pretend to be better at X.

Agreed. You (the OP) need to be socialized. :-) There is a phenomenon I call the "Engineering Dance", where engineers and similar types go through a kind dominance ritual on first meeting, probing to see who is the most expert. This doesn't work in most social situations; most people dont like it.

My SO has a masters in math and a minor in CS, but we dont talk about my work much at all. She's a painter; we talk about painting. I enjoy it because I'm learning a lot. I suggest finding a nontechnical interest and become good at it: music, art, literature. You dont have to be an artist or musician, just knowledgeable.

Enlist a woman in the reclamation project. Their social skills really are better than ours, especially the extroverts. Dont look for a GF to do this. Enlist a sister or friend. The two of you can throw a barbecue or the like for the expanded set of friends.

Most people have a socially adept friend. Use said friend for introductions.

Let me say: I think that getting a girlfriend who will up and tell you when you are being an ass (later on, in private) is one of the best things you can do!

"Engineering Dance" -- Guilty as charged! Brilliant name for it.

I definitely agree on the girlfriend, but from my experience that's even more difficult than learning social graces. It takes a perceptive woman to realize that underneath is a really good guy that just needs some help. Young women are often as dense in their own way as hackers. It took me years and the experience of a bad marriage to become acceptable to a good woman.

Agreed, it took me years of being a jerk to women plus the good fortune of an ex turning into a friend and smacking me with the truth.

My solution also involved perception, but on my part. I was able to spot the potential in a quiet, wallflowery girl at a party. Now I am blessed with a a very sweet, patient, intelligent, perceptive, and demurely sexy girlfriend.

Another piece of advice -- all you nerdy guys out there who check off all the races except "African American" on dating site preferences -- do yourself a favor and stop it. There's lots of really cute nerdy gals out there who just happen to have a bit more melanin.

Let's just keep in mind that young women and hackers are not mutually exclusive.

the engineering dance is hugely annoying. my preferred mode is socratic--ask a lot of questions, stake out a minimal position--but with engineer types this is usually misinterpreted as accepting the other person's superior expertise. whereupon said expert proceeds to shut his ears down and hold court.

over a period of several weeks i can steer the mode of conversation around, but for casual encounters i have more or less accepted the subordinate position.

Maybe we all need captions?

[Closed Captioned for the Socially Impaired.]

[Engineering Dance in Progress]

[Esoteric Knowledge Shown]

[Minimal Position Staked Out]

[Monologing]

I laugh at the engineering dance anymore and mock those who try to engage me in it. Most of them are so intensely into it they don't even recognize the 'meta' joke I'm making at their expense.

Its lots of fun in interviews. Some wannabe alpha dork trying to catch me in programming language/electronics trivia is the best. In a group interview with their peers watching them, some of them getting what game I'm playing, is incredibly entertaining. Try it if you get a chance.

Please share some anecdotes, should be good for lulz.

> Most people have a socially adept friend

I don't think this came out very well in my post, but I think I am very socially adept. I'm the "socially adept friend" that you're talking about.

Well then, you just need to introduce yourself to yourself. :-)

My old neighborhood was very close knit with lots of neighborhood functions. Our responsibility was the Halloween party. Me ex knew the wives of everyone, VC's, congressmen, academics, and just plain neighbors. The party was so popular that strangers from 15-20 miles away asked to be invited. We divorced and both moved away. I told one of my daughters that I missed the closeness of the old neighborhood. She told me that my ex was the social glue. It's just an ordinary neighborhood now.

My suggestion is to throw occasional, family friendly celebrations (not the standard cocktail party) with a couple of other co-hosts. Family friendly, because the SO's greatly expand the contacts. If there isn't a readily available occasion, celebrate Guy Fawkes day or something suitably oddball. If you make it potluck, it isnt even expensive. It's easy to get a reputation for gatherings of interesting people (except for maybe DC and Manhattan :-).

All social groups do the "engineering dance" it's just the engineers do it nonviolently and are better able to decipher intellectual capabilities without damaging their ego.

It's a natural law. It's supply and demand. Chickens for example will fight over food if it is not dispersed on the ground so they can all get to it. They will fight and establish a hierarchy so they can all get to the food in an orderly manner. Lions do it. The males eat first because they are strongest, and on and on.

The difference with Engineers is that they see the world is full of opportunity for them so there is no lack of demand for their talents.

I've seen the "violent" approach with some of the less intelligent bosses I've had. They'll try to fire you or damage your reputation within the organization. The more intelligent bosses give positive incentives to remain and treat their people well.

The propensity to rule by force is inversely proportional to IQ. This is true at all levels of biology from amphibians to nation states.

I hesitated to comment on this post for a long time but I think you're pretty much completely off base.

I don't really see how the first 3 paragraphs has anything to do with the problem that I'm having, and I think that for some reason you've just assumed that I don't have hobbies (!?).

As for the "give up the I'm-so-smart routine", I've already explained what I meant several times elsewhere so I don't think I need to get into it again, but needless to say, I think you've completely misinterpreted what I was trying to convey. To be honest, I think that paragraph of yours sounds more arrogant than anything in my first post. But then again, sometimes things just get lost in translation.

The last paragraph sounds incredibly condescending. "Get better attitude and lifestyle"? It really sounds like you're trying to say that you live a "better" life and have a better attitude than what I have, even though the only thing you know about me is my age, what I did last night and a personal issue that I'm trying to understand for myself.

As I said, much of this can be attributed to misinterpretation on both sides. Obviously we could go back and forth clarifying various aspects of our posts but I don't really see the value in that. I prefer just to take some of the lessons I posted elsewhere under this submission and work from there.

I felt like that until I was 19. I joined Mensa, and found people who loved puzzles, knowledge, intelligence and discussion.

When I moved town and did my PhD I found the local Mensans complete prats, but the university gave me the stimulation I needed.

You need to find people with whom you can be yourself, but equally, you need to learn how to get on with people in general. I learned a lot from Dale Carnegie's "How to Win Friends and Influence People." It's almost a manual for how to problem-solve your way through the challenge of social interaction. Recognise that others have needs and desires, and sometimes that means you shouldn't try to educate them. There are times when it's of no value.

Recognise too that sometimes others are just as smart as you, but in different fields of expertise. Learn to learn from them.

Stay true to yourself, learn to interact with people generally, respect people as individuals, ...

Seek out those with whom you can be yourself.

They do exist.

That's the trick! Find something interesting about people. People want to be appreciated and /almost/ everyone has something to appreciate. As an intelligent person, your job isn't to be more interesting than other people, it is to find the interesting things in others.

It's like playing games. Over time, if you always win, people stop wanting to playing with you. Find games they can win and lose frequently until you win all the time then find a new game to play with them together.

"The reason I've managed to make the connections I desired is that I'm fascinated by people's stories. Beneath the small-talk surface, every life is a fascinating novel, so I always follow the suggestion from Proverbs 4:7, "With all thy getting get understanding." This directive means stand under, in the relatively lowly position of student, and let whomever we're trying to understand occupy the high ground of teacher."

Be the student. Let someone teach you.

From a sex/relationship advice article but very true.

http://lifestyle.msn.com/relationships/articleoprahmatch.asp...

Personally, I try not to say things like "dumbing down". It's presumptuous to assume that I'm smarter than other people; I don't need that kind of ego boost.

I tend to think of it as people having different interests. Many people have a familiarity with celebrity gossip that rivals my familiarity with programming. They're just choosing to use their brainpower in a different way.

I'm sure many people on HN disagree, but that's how I see the world. Intelligence neutral.

I choose to hang out with people who are interested in things that I am. I have a natural filter -- I continue to talk about things that I think are interesting in all company, and when conversation moves in a direction that I don't like, I disengage. That's not to say that I don't try to take an interest in things outside of my realm of experience, but people who know me learn pretty quickly that if they talk about football, I'm going to get glassy eyed. Or worse, start talking about the use of graph theory in tournament scheduling.

> Personally, I try not to say things like "dumbing down"

I know exactly what you mean. That's why I put in quotes. It just makes it easier to talk about.

Usually, "dumbing myself down" in my case means suppressing knowledge that I have. I can't fault other people for not knowing things that I do because as you say different people have different interests, and beside that I spend much more time on the internet that what they do, so I'm more up to date with current affairs than they are.

But whether you take "dumbing down" to mean suppression of knowlege, skills or intelligence, the end result is what I was referring to.

> I continue to talk about things that I think are interesting in all company, and when conversation moves in a direction that I don't like, I disengage

This is part of what I mean. Maybe other people have a higher tolerance level (or maybe I do it too much) but this kind of behaviour has really taken it's toll on me.

If someone say "we only use 10% of our brains", do you really view it as "dumbing yourself down" if you hold back a long lecture about the actual structure of the human brain? If so, I would say you simply lack social skills. This is not a bad judgement on you in itself, not everybody was born with equal endowment in social skills, and they can be learned. However, the way in which you ascribe your lack of ability to get along with your fellow human beings to your much vaster intelligence is a little ugly.

My default instinct is to feel bad for socially inept people, because I have had a good deal of social problems myself. However, I often find that socially-inept people are simply ugly on the inside, even after I give them the benefit of the doubt. Walking around making constant negative judgments about the intelligence of your peers is hardly a good way to get along.

> However, the way in which you ascribe your lack of ability to get along with your fellow human beings to your much vaster intelligence is a little ugly.

Maybe I didn't explain myself well enough, but I get along with other people very well. People like being around me for various reasons. Don't get me wrong - I am fully aware that there is much more to life than intellectual stimulation and in no way do I base my relationships with people on this idea alone. I'm just talking about one outcome of managing my relationship with others, and I would like to find out how many other people have gone through this (or are going through this) and how they deal with it. I find that self-improvement is one of the first steps in managing relations with others. Because at the end of the day, it is my problem, not theirs.

It's difficult to convey your precise meaning when it comes to interpersonal relationships. You can try very hard to explain what you mean but there will invariably be some ambiguity (it took me a few days to figure out how I should verbalize this to HN - in the end I decided to avoid analysis-paralysis). In many cases, the best one can do is hope that what you say strikes a chord with people in similar situations (hence the opening and closing sentences). That more people are commenting on individual pieces of my post rather than sharing there own experiences could be an indication that there aren't many people that can relate to this.

Whatever the case, I am grateful for the responses.

You have an unhealthy view of other people. You're asking "how can I get along with people who are too dumb to hold my interest?". That implies a negative value judgment of them, even though you backpedal and justify yourself by claiming that you seek self-improvement. Learn to enjoy the unique positive aspects of other people and you will be much happier.

My ex couldn't follow my academic work, but she was a writer with a rich inner life. That was interesting to me, and we got along. If I wrote her off because she couldn't follow complexity theory, I would have missed out on a good relationship.

Personally, I had many problems socializing. I used to hate parties, clubs, large gatherings, etc. I would get bored. However, I value other people and I value having good social skills. So I bought books and worked at it. The challenge of being good at social situations turns out to be interesting enough to hold my attention.

What books did you feel helped you?

Walking around making constant negative judgments about the intelligence of your peers is hardly a good way to get along.

I posit that this is mostly due to the very incomplete first-hand/direct understanding most of us have of intelligence. Most of us only know one or several slim slices of intelligence. This may make it very hard for us to recognize intelligence in another.

I am reminded of an encounter with the clerk at the comic book store the day before yesterday. He was trying to make me out like I was some sort of illiterate because I didn't know who everyone in the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen was. (I know the major characters only.) As it so happens, much of my interest is in music and not literature, but I am sometimes moved by literature. He seemed positively smug that only he was curious enough to Google all the minor characters.

One thing that I might say -- it seems that a degree of "emotional intelligence" might have tremendous leverage -- it may well help you find others who are intelligent in novel and interesting ways.

Another situation from the past week -- there's a woman in one of the jam sessions I go to, who's just a terrible drummer! She has no sense of rhythm, except to approximate the beat with random and inappropriate errors. (Which totally wipes out the wonderful push-pull on the rhythm that the really good musicians are trying to share with each other.) It's like she's an incontinent with no sense of smell, inured to everyone's teeth-gritting tolerance of her. Well, there's a definite "flow" to socializing, and many different styles. It's advisable to either learn the particular "flow" of your group, or find another one more to your liking.

Be the person you wish you were. Anyone who doesn't like it is not a friend you need. It is absolutely possible to have a very active social life and also have intellectually stimulating friends.

I have long tried to make a point to never dumb myself down for the sake of others. The people it scares away are the people that I want to scare away, because they offer nothing to me and I probably offer nothing to them. And the people who appreciate my kind of intelligence are the people I want to associate with.

If it feels dishonest, it probably is.

Edit: Also, move to Silicon Valley. It's full of people who like smarts.

Been there. But I find I haven't felt that particular need for quite a while. I guess what helped is that in the last year I started to read a lot. I made a "never look at the price" policy when it comes to books, and used amazon to the max. I still have a backlog of 2-3 books, and usually one in the mail (also in a not very developed country, mail takes about a month).

I can only guess why it works, or why simply reading HN or articles isn't enough. Reading a book is usually harder, more immersive and, if the author is good, usually feels like a dialog.

What books exactly probably depends on yourself. I started with The Black Swan, by Nicholas Nassim Taleb, and it really opened my taste to good books. Richard Dawkins's older books, Marvin Minsky, Hernando de Soto, Jared Diamond, they all deserve to be read in full.

I also caught up with some professional books I somehow missed, like The Mythical Man-month or Peopleware, and I found a fascination for cognitive psychology with The Wisdom of Crowds and Predictably Irrational.

Yup. Thinking back I no longer wonder why. Each book was a very long conversation with a person smarter then myself. Exactly what I needed.

You may not like my answer, but you asked, so here goes:

I think the only problem is with your attitude. Like ilitirit, I hate the expression, "dumbing down". I am probably similar in nature to you, and I have never had this problem, much less even thought about it.

At the bookstore over coffee, my SO reads about design & fashion while I read about Galois and number theory. So what? (I just have to remember to nod in agreement to questions like, "Aren't those window treatments beautiful?") When people talk about sports, I don't tune out; in fact, I enjoy a little football and basketball between coding sessions.

OTOH, NASCAR = for(i=0;i<800;i++){turnLeft()};

I don't watch much TV, don't enjoy gossip, and don't recognize many celebrities, but I can still smile and nod in most conversations. At the very least, I can usually politely direct them to something a little more interesting.

Don't forget, you're human before you're a hacker, so being among other people, no matter who they are, is important to your well being. Don't think of "dumbing down", think of "diversifying among potential users of my code". So get out of that bedroom and join the rest of us. You'll be fine.

WWSGD?

What would Summer Glau do?

Dumbing yourself down is like hacking off a foot to fit in with a leper colony. It's a change that'll be hard to reverse later on, whether you want to or not.

Don't dumb yourself down. People will sense that you are not being yourself and you will be miserable anyway. I have made the same mistake myself in past and I have realised that often times people that you consider less 'intellectual' are capable of very stimulating conversation if given the right subject to talk about.

The key is to not be condescending. People don't mind smart people, but they hate being made to feel stupid. If you have to correct someone, do it in a kind, diplomatic matter.

People don't always have to be super smart to be interesting, even less intelligent folks have the ability to teach you something if you really show an interest.

I myself would rather spend most my time with 'boring', real live people than with a web browser in a darkened room.

Yes, its all in approach. Two examples in regards to the 10% brain thing:

Someone: "You know, you only use 10% of your brain!"

You: "Actually, that has been debunked forever now. If you had just searched on Google you'd have known this. It's totally false, you use your entire brain yada yada yada."

vs.

You: "Yeah, someone I know told me that before and I thought it sounded really weird, so I googled around and found out that it turns out it's not actually entirely true! Pretty crazy, eh? It turns out, you use your entire brain yada yada"

The former is "you are dumb, if you used the internet or was as smart as me you'd know better" The latter is "hey friend, let me tell you a story about how I found out about how that's not true. You could have found this out too, but I'll save you the time and tell you what I uncovered."

More succinctly "You're dumb, I'm smart" vs "Check this out, friend."

I believe that I can relate. I have a deep interest in various permanent and ephemeral topics that I simply have no idea who I would discuss them with. I am far more interested in these than most front pages of the newspaper, but the wonderful people who are my friends wouldn't sit still for the hour or so it would take them to get up to speed on the issue.

That's not to say I am particularly smart or anything, I'm just a specialist in terms of my interests more than a generalist. People also fit different amounts of thinking into each day, and I probably do more than most. That thinking may well be of low quality, but the quantity ensures that I would probably get blank stares from almost anyone.

So, I work on being a generalist where possible to help fit in, and I develop the skill of tailoring my conversation content and style (and speech) to different scenarios. That's fine for casual social situations, and great for work, but I still yearn for someone who has read all the articles I just read and wants to talk about them. I know from the web they are out there, but our paths never cross.

The funny thing is, I blame RSS. I think that RSS really did enable the computer to be a "bicycle for the mind" and that you can tell quite quickly now in a social circle who uses RSS and who doesn't. I guess that your friends don't. A well-stocked news reader expands your world and your interests and your knowledge of current events so quickly, that it almost creates two classes of people.

I have had people comment favorably on my breadth of knowledge on current events and I almost laugh - I just skimmed a relevant article in my reader that morning, so I happened to know what they are talking about. I guess they are also used to "dumbing it down" for others.

I finally convinced my wife to use RSS and now we have so many more good conversations. Her eyes glaze over quickly when I mention Tokyo Cabinet or Wolfram|Alpha, but that just means I have to work harder to make it interesting and relative.

> The funny thing is, I blame RSS.

Yeah, I can relate. I've always wondered if I would still have this problem if my thirst for knowledge wasn't so big. I've tried introducing some of my friends to things like StumbleUpon and reddit etc (they are somewhat intimidated when confronted with IT terms like RSS though). Only one of them has taken an interest, and he loves it and regularly crawls the web to learn more about the world. Strangely enough, it is when I did this that the problem in my original post started growing. I think my frustrations were being suppressed subconsciously and when I realized this shared some of my interests, it dawned on me how I missed real-world intellectual stimulation. Like an ex crack-addict who just took another hit after years of being clean.

I am of course a realist. I don't expect to "convert" all my friends, so in the meantime I'll just try to find ways in which to cope.

This is happening with me also. I'm a hacker (ok a developers) and my friends don't understand really what the web is, so I turn to spend 98% of my time in front of computer and avoid to go with them anywhere because their talk makes me headaches.

However (few months ago) I did found a friend that really understand me (although being tech-savvy) and we are projecting for the summer.

Keep searching, if in your area internet is widely used, you may find, I already find another one (she's a girl and work as a designer) using twitter, but not in the same city.

Be patient getting good friends need time

Something that I've noticed is that this usually happens in "poorer" areas. What country are you from? I'm from South Africa, and most people down here don't even have a computer, let alone the internet.

My friends are different though, but they don't spend as much time on the internet as I do. There aren't any other software programmers in my group either.

lol, i'm from the north, no here there's a lot of computers (it was a state project to make them cheap for families at $700 or less) and internet is cheap also ($15/month) but my friends don't understand computers, they only know how to log on facebook :D

Look for more friends, just because the rule is that one group is smart but lame, and the other is dumb and fun, doesn't mean that there aren't people who are both.

There are plenty of people who are smart and fun, and plenty who are dumb and lame.

Sure you'll have to work harder to find those people, but it should be worth it, to keep your identity

We are all different people in different social circles. This is just how successful humans operate. You don't behave the same way over dinner with your parents as you are over dinner with your friends.

It seems to me you have unrealistic expectations. As you grow older you gain many different social circles, ex college, ex work, ex town etc. What binds you is different and what stimulates each group is different. If you seriously can't find something stimulating about a group of people then just stop seeing them... but remember it is also a reflection on you.

Most people offer much more then you seem to be able to extract and when addressed properly are stimulated by challenging conversation.

My friend, you sound like my clone. I haven't really figured it out. We may just be doomed.

If possible, can you explain which parts of my post resonated with you most and how you would have put it in your own words? I'm trying to understand how I should communicate these sort of issues to other people.

Like you, I've put it into words many times with my family. I have my cool friends, but they're turned off and intimidated by intellectual conversations and they don't have anything useful to contribute anyway. On the other hand, my geeky friends consider some of my interests superficial.

In my dream world, I'd have friends I could go lift weights with, have a BBQ, get dressed up, go clubbing, and talk continuation/passing style and credit default swaps while we do it.

I don't think you should communicate these issues to other people. Which group wouldn't be offended? It certainly won't help anything.

> I don't think you should communicate these issues to other people. Which group wouldn't be offended? It certainly won't help anything.

To an extent I can agree, but I think the internet is great for discussions like these. I'm not particularly afraid of offending strangers, especially if I've put in a lot of effort to avoid it, but the feedback is great in helping me understand how people might react in the real world.

Out of curiosity, do either of you two know what your MBTI types are? My initial guess would be some kind of NT. Maybe ENTJ?

A few years ago, I discovered there actually are circles that are truly both very smart, and totally cool.

For example in Toronto, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumkidz

Previously I thought this was impossible, and I was didnt even dare hope to find it.

But, Im no longer in TO, and yes, its hard once again to find. But I know such people are out there!

Don't ever dumb yourself down just to be accepted by people. It seems like you have simply outgrown your friends. You are growing and becoming a different person. That is a good thing.

I've always been the type of person who most enjoys having "deep" discussions with one other person. You need to connect with people on a much deeper level than you are currently doing. Don't worry, there are plenty of people like that around. You need to go out and find them.

So... Get out of your comfort zone and start trying new things. For instance, try swing dancing, start taking lessons. You'll find an entirely different caliber of people at swing dances than you will in bars.

I think you are doing fine and the fact that you are concerned about this and reaching out to others to find a solution tells me that you will most likely find what you are looking for.

Good luck in your search and keep on learning and growing like you are doing. It sounds like you are on a great path.

You sound like you're torn between Niles & Frasier Crane and the cast of Friends!

FWIW, I have a LOT of different interests, and I get really cheesed off by one group of nerdy friends who are anxious to put down anything popular but am similarly frustrated by normal people who won't branch out of their comfort zone and look at the world through a different lens.

I'm not a computer buff by trade or training but I suspect this is a problem that has nothing to do with intelligence. It often seems to have more to do with not wanting to admit to knowing/not knowing about something so as not to appear too 'different'. I think it's a rut one can get out of through travelling/ moving/working somewhere new, because being suddenly forced to make new friends as an adult can encourage honesty and a re-evaluation of what is important.

Good luck, however you choose to tackle this problem.

> So when I hear people confidently repeat urban myths like "we only use 10% of our brains", or "you'll drown if you don't eat an hour before swimming" etc, I don't bother trying to explain why I think they're wrong.

Why would you do a thing like that? I just go to extraordinary lengths to do the exact opposite... correct people all the time. Over the ages, it has resulted in a lot of nicknames, sarcasm but yes... a group of friends who accept me for what I truly am and with whom I truly enjoy the time I spend. And I wouldn't have it any other way.

I really don't understand why would you do a thing like that? Why hide what you are? Who cares what others think? I say jump right in... let them know what you think, pitch your ideas, debate... what's the worse that could happen? You would be back to the dark bedroom, bright monitor, 20 tabs, right?

I just think it is more important to be authenticate with myself and people who knows me.I do not to dumb myself down if I am really smart. And I know there are chances that someone is smarter than I am or learned more domain knowledge than I have. I need to be modest but I need to hold my own ground. Otherwise, I will be a big coward toward my true self.

I did not try to fit in any group. If I don't feel comfortable. I leave. I am a pretty loner and I take it.

I hold very low opinions toward a person who can't be authenticate about himself/herself. When I feel a person are just a fake person and I just move away. IMHO, faking wastes precious resources in the world. I don't want myself to be someone wasting other people's time and emotion. And I don't want people like that to waste my time and emotion.

This reminds me of a sentence by Arthur Schopenhauer: "... one's choice in this world does not go much beyond solitude on one side and vulgarity on the other".

It's important to make time for both! >:)

I've felt similarly, but I found that part of the problem was that I was seeking acceptance and participation from my friends, even though I was occupying myself with increasingly specific and esoteric things. Part of the solution was just caring less what other people think, and mentioning to them only the pretty/nifty/cool/engaging things that I work on, not the theoretical stuff.

Another good tip is that, with some time and effort, you can largely shape the kind of new friends you meet, especially today with the web. You could organise some informal gettogethers, interest groups, lectures, etc. Providing free beer helps a lot. Leverage your workplace, your school, your local watering hole. Hunt for people who are doing the same things you do. Blog about what you do, so others can find it. These days, you can automate a lot of this just by setting up search feeds on Google, Twitter, etc. Even on something as noisy as Twitter, there's someone talking about fluid dynamics, linguistics, philosophy, etc. Find them, see what places they link to, and join their communities so you can find out where they hang out in real life. The trick is to not treat the online world as a separate place where the "cool people hang out", but simply the medium through which "cool people hook up". Most of the people you want to hang out with are in the same boat as you: bored, alone and online.

The fact is that you are less likely to meet someone truly interested in your pursuits than just regular 'nice people'. Accept this, but make sure you are ready to encounter these special people and show them, very quickly, that you are a smart person worth getting to know and worth having in depth conversations with.

Also, though the hacker lifestyle has its perks, it never hurts to expand your interests to include more outdoor activities. Often you can be as intellectual and nerdy about those as you want, without suffering the nerd penalty.

As for correcting people on urban legends: people don't like being told they're wrong and many people enjoy urban legends for the drama and excitement, because it gives them a story to tell. Often they don't really care if it's true or not.

My first thought upon reading your problem was, "I have friends who are smart and fun. Why doesn't he get some of those?"

It almost sounds like you have two very black and white social circles: dry, boring 'smart' friends, and shallow, ignorant 'fun' friends. Maybe you are too picky and elitist, I can't say, but I've also hung around genuinely empty-headed party types, and it is a little soul destroying. I feel your pain.

Any way you could find something more in the middle?

I know tons of people who know how to have a good time, but also have a geeky side, if you want to call it that. They're mostly grad students in social sciences / humanities-type subjects. I almost take it for granted most of the people I meet are going to be fairly bright.

> It almost sounds like you have two very black and white social circles

Actually, I have one social circle. Maintaining two (there were 3, in fact) was too much of a strain on my personal life. I have no doubt that if I had chosen another group, I would have had similar problems adjusting my lifestyle (I've been through this before, so I know).

It seems obvious to say "you should find smart AND fun people", but the big question is "how?". In my experience it takes a while to realize that someone meets the criteria. After all, it's not usually one thing that attracts you to/repels you from people over time - it's patterns of behaviour, or emergent behaviour from certain characteristics. And by the time you've recognized these things about them (and the negatives outweigh the positives), you're probably already friends and then you have to work on distancing yourself depending on their their social proximity. This gets complex the feelings aren't mutual (eg. they consider you a closer friend than you do them, or vice versa). I know it sounds complex, but this is based on my own experiences. I'm sure many people out there have had to deal with distancing themselves from people.

look into "INTP" personality type if you haven't already.

the way i see it is that between people, we want to communicate ideas. in order to communicate we have to meet at a shared context, and shared semiotics. the way i'm writing this is not how i would talk to someone at work. the way i talk at work is not how i would talk to my mom. the way i talk to my mom is not how i would talk with my housemate. the way i talk about a problem with a designer is not the way i talk about a problem with an engineer. the way i talk about a problem with an engineer is not the way i talk when discussing philosophy.

if you value comprehension, and you value growth, then you are in the minority of our society - especially when it comes to comprehension. it's easier to find people trying to win than to find people trying to comprehend. since you value learning and growing, you will accelerate as will others like you, beyond the understandings common in our society. your context will diverge more so from shared contexts, simply because you are internally growing. don't fret - just communicate what needs to be communicated. some people may not be interested in some of the things your interested in, and others will be. run into brilliant people with shared interests, sure it might be exciting, but you'll still need to communicate - you'll still need to meet with words, body language, and smiles - you're experience is entirely your own. we are all alone, together.

I dumb myself down occasionally when I realize I'm making the person I'm talking to feel bad.

I used to just keep on educating/making corrections for people until I realized that the primary purpose of socializing in the majority of cases isn't necessarily for communication, but for camaraderie.

Now, instead of going off on intellectual monologues, I simply ask clarifying questions or make jokes that make us all laugh and realize the correct answer as a group.

I usually guide other people in the group to announce the conclusions in order to not seem like I'm picking on the target.

I think what is happening to you is pretty normal. My advice to you is to be more honest with yourself and with your friendships. If your friends are boring you change up the conversation or suggest doing something exciting. If your friends seem dumb then keep trying to talk about intellectually stimulating things.

If you feel like all hope is lost, get out of your bubble. Try a new activity. Go travel for an extended period of time. You have to be fun, exciting, and interesting yourself before you start attracting the same types of people.

I've dumbed myself down before, to the point where people didn't notice I was smart. Was nice going under the radar. Tried for a while to knock down my intelligence with heavy amounts of drug and alcohol abuse, reading crap and not remotely pushing myself.

I developed a crazy hippy persona which allowed me to talk about crazy topics and get away with it. Was regular on the rave scene getting the nickname of the raving hippy.

When I'm out I won't talk about computers at all (the first rule of computer club is you don't talk about computer club), if someone asks me what I do I'll give a very general response. I often find myself talking about stuff I saw on ted.com or fringe science or other crazy ideas. I actively avoid the normal topics and try to switch the topic to something more interesting.

I like to be a social chameleon, bantering well with lots of different people.

I'm lucky with my friends and house mates, I live with A.I. programmer, a dude with a photographic memory and a fitness instructor, it's a nice balance. Friends wise know a lot of good people from my uni days who like to snowboard and/or travel and are also rather smart.

Though despite being able to hold my own socially, I'm happiest when sat at my desk, pissing around with pcs, code and learning crazy stuff from the net. I've also stopped dumbing myself down now and I'm working on creating the best version of myself that I can.

Guess in your situ would be tempted by a work break for 6months - 1 year. Go find your place in the world =]

Sorry bit of a ramble =]

I think you're looking at this problem in the wrong way. Apply some of that intelligence of yours and try to figure out why you have to "dumb yourself down" to have a good relationship with your friends.

Conversation is a real skill. Communicating your ideas in terms that someone else can really understand and find interesting isn't always easy. And on the flip side, truly understanding what someone is saying and finding value in it for yourself isn't easy either.

Your predicament is more common than you may think. There's a book called "Pretending to be Normal" it's about an aspie. You may not be an aspie, but a lot of what the author goes through and her behaviors could be lessons for you.

http://www.amazon.com/Pretending-Be-Normal-Aspergers-Syndrom...

http://www.iwillnotdie.com/why-people-dont-like-smart-people...

Much of what the author said on the two related blogs resonated with me:

http://www.iwillnotdie.com/why-smart-people-fail/ http://www.iwillnotdie.com/why-smart-people-are-unhappy/

He may have a somewhat controversial tone (I'm sure he received even more flack than I did for saying "dumbing down"), but I simply "get" what he's trying to say, because like many others I've also been there. My problem though is not so much this - it's dealing with the frustrations that go with wearing the "mask" for so long.

Reducing this issue to smart vs not smart simplifies talking about human interaction, but it can also alienate many people. But one also has to consider: Is the mere fact that one considers things to this depth a symptom of the curse of the foreigner in Rome? Would I be less frustrated if I started caring less about what others think? Is it possible to go through life happy as a foreigner in Rome? I tend to think of these kinds of people end up as miserable old lonely men (or at least that's what the media would have one believe).

I would love to post a hugely insightful reply but I'm really struggling with that.

All I can say is that I know exactly how you feel and I completely understand your problem, which is why I find your description of your problem perfectly clear. Either someone KNOWS what you mean or they don't. Simple as that.

From my experience, it is impossible to explain this particular "problem" to anyone who isn't in the same situation without being accused of arrogance or ignorance.

For me, it is the curse of being an intelligent, semi-geeky, extrovert and intellectual young woman. I'm a bit of too many things, which means that I don't really fit into any group. But honestly - I wouldn't have it any other way, because I am grateful for the intensity and depth of my emotional and intellectual life. Although I have to admit that it can be a bit lonely at times. But then again - who doesn't feel like that sometimes?

Fortunately for me, I'm slowly learning to attract like-minded people, who don't need an explanation. Having at least a couple of people who just "get you" is crucial for sanity, although they don't have to be geographically close.

The problem is you need to find even smarter people than the smart ones you mentioned, ideally geniuses who only hope they can meet smart and socially able people like yourself. In the end everyone has different levels of intelligence in different areas.

As for the engineering dance, I don't do it. If someone's got issues with their intelligence, it's their problem, not mine.

Find people smart in things you know little about. I had years of fun with a group deep in political theory. Then I left school and now I have to find a new group.

But, there's a large percentage of people who just aren't intellectually motivated. Which is fine: family, friends, and/or fun are all equally valid motivators. When you're with them, focus on what you enjoy about what they enjoy. E.g. if they're socially focused, focus on the social interactions you also enjoy. Don't screw it up with geekishness.

With all that said, this is completely wrong: "The problem is that part of trying to fit in is emulating the behaviour of your peers." NO. It's about finding a way for all of you to get along being yourselves. I'll happily drop some random geeky-but-mainstream jokes with my non-computer friends.

Also, you're probably going to have to hang out with multiple types of people to get all your bases covered to get balance.

Re: The engineering dance thing.

I find that technical people, developers/hackers etc. can often be incredibly annoying when they do this. Many also have a tendency to call other developers idiots or constantly talk about their skills. It's really not a great way to make people think highly of you, either professionally or socially.

As Richard Rusczyk says, "If ever you are by far the best, or the most interested, student in a classroom, then you should find another classroom."

http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Resources/AoPS_R_A_Calcul...

That generalizes to how to live in adult life. Seek out the smartest people you can find, and spend time interacting with them.

This, of course, is what I like about HN. My happiest time of social life growing up was two years in junior high in Minnesota in which I was "tracked" with mostly very bright fellow students. Most of the rest of my life I've been trying to regain a social circle like that. Now I'm most of the way back to where I was almost four decades ago, with lots of friends who are plainly very smart, who get my jokes, and who understand my vocabulary.

Perhaps you should check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SuperHappyDevHouse ?

If you don't live near one you could help start one in your area.

FWIW, after reading the 40 or so comments posted so far, here are some of my thoughts, observations and things I've learned after submitting the original post (in no particular order):

1. Either there are very few people on HN who can relate to this "problem" (when I put something in quotes, it sometimes means I am doing so for the sake of brevity ie. I understand the implications and various connotations of a term but explaining that I do would take up to much time/space. Like now.), or they felt more compelled to comment on aspects of my post than post their own experiences. Both of these explanations echo what I've observed in the real world and on other sites

2. Intelligence is a very touch subject for many people. Many people chose to comment on my choice of using the phrase "dumbing down". I'm still trying to find a good choice of words that doesn't need to fill entire paragraph, and that can adequately express what I mean. I think the audience here plays a big role is choosing the correct phrasing.

3. I should spend more time thinking about the examples I cite. A few people based parts of their comments around the fact that I mentioned "strip club" (apparently sex still sells). I don't enjoy strip clubs at all. I mentioned it because a) it's true, b) I thought it would provide a good contrast. But more importantly, instead of spending time agonizing over examples (I spent quite a bit of time considering whether or not I should use the "10% of our brain" bit), perhaps I should try to express more clearly that I'm talking about patterns of behaviour, rather than individual occurrences.

4. I'm under no illusions - it's very, very difficult if not impossible to generalize human behaviour. People are different and they can interpret things in very different ways. Culture also plays a very big role. That's why I don't really expect to find the answer here or anywhere else. (Maybe there isn't an answer? Maybe this is a non-problem?) I just tend to look for patterns in responses and try to improve/change my own attitude, mindset, communication and relationships with people (if I do find great advice, it's a bonus). Most of the replies I've read have misinterpreted something I've said. That could be partly my fault and/or partly the reader's.

5. One can't really quantify aspects of social relationships objectively, so you resort to using qualifiers like "tend to", "many" (instead of "any"), and "probably" etc, rather than talking about "10% of the time", or "60% of my discussions". But considering that most people seemed to ignore these qualifiers, is this really the best way to express these ideas?

6. Believe it or not, I get along with people very well. I know about adapting to different situations and can do it with great ease, and I do recognize what I'm talking about as my own shortcoming rather than blaming others.

There are many other things but I think these are the most significant for now.

I think the better description you're looking for is, "The conversations aren't as rigorous as I'd like."

But I'm confused. Do you really expect meaty, stimulating conversation when you go clubbing?

Also, you seem to be going out of your way to bring up the strip club. If you don't like it don't go.

> I think the better description you're looking for is, "The conversations aren't as rigorous as I'd like."

It's not that either, but then again it could be. We all have different ways of interpreting this. That's why the most important part of my post was trying to find people who could relate to what I'm talking about.

> But I'm confused. Do you really expect meaty, stimulating conversation when you go clubbing?

Not at all, but again this was just an example (a poor one it seems - which is what I was getting at in the post you responded to). I'll try to provide some context: Certain clubs have separate lounge areas for the purpose of relaxation, privacy, and social interaction on a more intimate level. My friends and I spend a lot of time in clubs and parties (some of them own clubs so it's nothing new to them), so when we go out we tend to spend more time in the lounge areas than at the bar or dancefloor. Occasionally a "serious" conversation will arise and that's what I'm talking about now. Now as I tried to explain, I'm not referring to one particular incident. I'm really talking about a pattern of behaviour.

> Also, you seem to be going out of your way to bring up the strip club. If you don't like it don't go.

I don't understand why you think that, or why you think the problem I have is with the strip club. I think you're exhibiting the behaviour that results from a poor incidence selection (that's what I was talking about in my previous post).

I tried to explain why I mentioned it (truth and contrast), and why I thought it was a bad example.

Of course, I could be wrong about everything here, or maybe I will just be misinterpreted/misunderstood again. But I think that trying to cover all my bases is unproductive. Case in point: How much value was there for me in explaining what I meant by "lounge in a club"?

> That's why the most important part of my post was trying to find people who could relate to what I'm talking about.

Right, but you still have to talk about it carefully. People here definitely got obsessed with your dumbing down comment. It's probably good to avoid words like smart or dumb since they can end up being a distraction.

> How much value was there for me in explaining what I meant by "lounge in a club"?

Explaining the lounge area was very helpful to me. The lounge areas in the places I've been to aren't really separate from the main part -- so not quiet or intimate like what you're describing. Your comments about conversation there make more sense now.

> I don't understand why you think that, or why you think the problem I have is with the strip club.

I see only two comments that mention it besides your own, and your original post has it inserted as a distracting aside. I was just observing, not trying to confront you. I get that you're trying to give an encompassing view of your social circle.

But then if it is supposed to illustrate patterns of behavior, does it mean you regularly do things with your social group that you don't enjoy?

> But then if it is supposed to illustrate patterns of behavior, does it mean you do things with your social group that you don't enjoy?

Yes, as they do with me. Compromise is part of what builds good relationships.

To me, it's about weighing the pros and cons of situation.

eg.

Pros:

I'll be with my friends and we usually have a good time together

Cons:

I don't enjoy visiting strip clubs

If I don't go with them, what do I do? Stay at home, go out on my own, or hook up with other people? At the time none of these were desirable.

The cons outweighed the pros, so I decided to join them. This is generally how I tackle things.

I agree, I think most of the people who responded assumed you were talking about geek/normal socialization. But you're talking about something else. You want to experience a variety of things, and thus you have a variety of social groups, but in each case you feel like you're suppressing part of yourself.

I know exactly what you are talking about. I don't think this is easy to fix. I've sort of "solved" the problem by living in the Bay Area. There are a lot of hypernerds, and a lot of wild and creative people who love to party, and a significant number of people who are in the intersection.

You'll never completely escape the problem, though. One of the blessings and curses of the modern world is that you can develop interests that make you very different from your geographic peers.

The one thing that you really MUST do is stay away from people or activities you have contempt for. That's not good for you or for them. And even if you think you are hiding it well, usually they pick up on it, at least subconsciously.

> I know exactly what you are talking about. I don't think this is easy to fix. I've sort of "solved" the problem by living in the Bay Area

After doing it for so long, I've realized it's not an easy problem to deal with. I think that you have a fairly accurate interpretation of what I'm trying to convey. I'm glad you posted about how you've attempted to deal with it (even though the "fix" may just have been a pleasant side-effect of moving for another reason). I've considered relocating, but I also like my friends. So to me, this is sort of ditching them and finding other people to be around. This could of course just be me trying to rationalize away unpleasant options but knowing myself it's also an indication of the difficulty of the problem.

Yeah. Also, be careful what you wish for. The Bay Area is great, but also an echo chamber for the kind of people who live in the Bay Area. Maybe it's a good thing that you bridge various worlds that don't normally communicate. You can be an 'interesting' person in all of them.

1. The average HN reader/commenter is way nerdier than is normal and some late comers to the party that is social skills get aggressive about it. If I can overcome my (para) Asperger's so should you! But it sounds like you're one of those people who are of intersection partyer/social animal & nerd (one interested in knowledge for its own sake)

2. And they don't hang out with people of normal intelligence much. Otherwise they'd know they were smarter than average. [This is not a value judgement on someone's worth as a human being, just on whether they're interesting to talk to on an ongoing basis, or only a few times with interestingness decreasing]

3. I think your problem is not hanging around with smart people. That's it. Occasionally abrasive, intelligent, talkative, argumentative, smart people. Hanging out with people you have to watch yourself with, who you have to consciously tailor your behaviour to is a chore.

4. [asshole] Give me a break. Generalisations work statistically, that's why you've noticed them. If you develop an individual relationship with someone, sure, relate to them as a person, but stupidly huge amounts of human interaction and behaviour can be modelled and gamed if you want to put the time and effort in to learn and apply it. You're over correcting because the cant says that everyone is a special unique snowflake and your experience tells you that's not true but it's not socially acceptable to say that kind of thing. Be more confident in your own experiences [/asshole]

5. Yes, it is, just not with people who get all huffy about this stuff.

6. Hey, if you can get along with everybody at the party even when you've got vanishingly little in common with them, maybe you can go for something where that's useful professionally. Personally I recommend heading to the real big city and hanging out with intellectual peers with a similarly ridiculous range of interests. They might not know what you're talking about but they'll be able to ask intelligent questions, and they'll want to and you'll be able to do the same with them.

Coming to this late I doubt anybody will read this but I am surprised nobody has made the obvious point: Many people's social circles contract as they get older. As you mature, it is natural to reach the conclusion that life is too short to spend on some people and that there are other, better things that you can do with your time. What you are complaining about is socialising in an environment that for whatever reason, you can't be yourself (in this case, because you can't correct people when they say something obviously wrong, but it could have been any other reason).

So don't. Decrease the quantity of your socialising, increase the quality, and spend your time doing something that gives you genuine pleasure, even if it means doing it on your own.

There do exist groups of people who like being corrected, and seek out their own mistakes. e.g. critical rationalists (see the philosophy of Karl Popper).

if interested, email me (see profile).

One way to look at it is that you'll inevitably dumb yourself down in front of someone you haven't yet realized is actually smart. So it seems you have a choice between 1) frequently appearing pompous or out-of-place but occasionally identifying yourself as smart to other smart people, which is likely a desirable outcome; or 2) always appearing average, even in front of people you'd prefer didn't think of you as average.

I got over it at the age of 25. Bloody hard transition. Pick new friends. If you are in SF, lets do beer!

http://v3.mingyeow.com/?page_id=5

Okay - check this room out: http://hackernews.speeqe.com/

It's for people that feel they're in the same predicament as ilitrit.

..or anyone here for that matter.

You're complaining about having two sets of friends? I think I'd settle for one.

But I won't dumb down.

Do you have a girlfriend?

No, but there are several women I sleep with occasionally. Do you think having a girlfriend would help alleviate the problem?

Find people worth being friends with and not those unsatisfying "disposable" friends who annoy you so much. I would say the same about finding a girlfriend, but maybe your fuck buddies don't annoy you as much.

If you do like I did--stumble across a woman with an IQ 50% higher than mine--then yes. And if the two of you are reasonably compatible, then you should consider marrying her. Otherwise, there's a good chance that a girlfriend would not alleviate the problem. At any rate, if you're interested in talking to a couple who has similar feelings, you can contact me at gmail.

You must be very smart. Wish I Was You.

There are several kinds of human-human relations in which dumbing yourself down are good thing. For example, in employee-employer relationship employee usually act dumber than his boss. Many women 'playing dumb' when it seems useful for them, especially when a man pays, and most of sales people doing this all the time.

But in some situations, you will probably hate it and will have an urge to be yourself - not act or adapt at all, and not see other people's acting. But this type of relationships is very hard to find. Usually what we got is a compromises, especially when in the middle age.

Intelligence is a commodity and is often over-rated. For example, I think energy/focus is more important.

Everyone has something valuable to give whether they are smart or not. More relevant is "Do I like this person?"

A focus on intelligence rather than "do i like them" seems like you are rigging the game in favor of your strengths. You're intelligent so that's the lens through which you view the world. A beautiful person or an exception people person might use those lens.

Again, "do i like them?" is more important than your biased lens.

You sound like a socially-uncalibrated egotistical person who blames his short-comings on other people.

I don't really see what the problem is with "switching modes" depending on who you're talking to. Everybody does it. It's natural. You don't want to be the guy that yaps about the research project he's doing during the department social hour, and which is coincidentally the only thing he talks about before and after social hour as well.

Even though I can follow a conversation about graph theory and computational biology, I still avoid the guys at social hour that won't talk about anything else.

> You sound like a socially-uncalibrated egotistical person who blames his short-comings on other people.

Why do you say that? I ask because I'm genuinely curious about how to talk about these things without sounding like that, and without having to qualify everything I say.

The fact is that I am aware that it's my shortcoming. That's why I'm not asking for advice on how to change other people. I'd rather find a way to improve the situation for myself. I don't consider myself supremely intelligent, and I don't consider my peers stupid either. For all I know, they might have the same complaints about me when it comes to topics like sports or women. I don't base relationships with people on the basis of my perception of their intelligence either. As I mentioned to someone else, this is just one aspect of the entire spectrum of interpersonal relationships. In the future, I might have a problem with learning to accept people's opinions. But right now, as far as relationships go, this is what has been on my mind.

Even though I can follow a conversation about graph theory and computational biology, I still avoid the guys at social hour that won't talk about anything else

I read his question as more like: "How do I reconcile knowing spouting X and Y are egregious idiocy with socializing with people who do that?"

I hear this question as more like "Doctor, it hurts when I do that, what do I do?" Answer: Don't do that!

> "How do I reconcile knowing spouting X and Y are egregious idiocy with socializing with people who do that?"

You're right, but after reading this to myself I realized that my problem could be more like "how do I deal with the frustrations that go along with managing relationships with people like this?"

I'm glad you posted that. Sometimes the difficulty in finding an answer stems from not fully understanding the problem one's self.

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