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Comment by lolwutf | Hacker News Reader

Whoa, whoa, whoa, hombre.

To broadly estimate the heroism of every other serving member in any singular statement is foolhardy, at best.

There are lots of good people doing good, heroic, insanely patriotic, admirable, and honorable things in that Military-Industrial-Surveillance Complex you describe.

Don't let the mistakes and abuses of the top give you some feeling that the system and everyone in it is corrupt. That system is literally putting themselves in front of bullets right now to defend your right to have such misguided ideas. What are you doing today?

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Careful there chief. I'm not sitting in a swank control room in Vegas killing innocent men and women via drone strikes in Pakistan and Afghanistan.

No one is putting themselves in front of bullets for my rights. They're putting themselves in front of bullets for their own reasons, but not for me.

Again with the sweeping characterizations. Why do you assume that every single person in the armed forces is corrupt?

As someone with a brother and several close friends in the military, this attitude is disheartening. You are free to believe that the leadership or even large swaths of the military is corrupt, but you cannot honestly state that no one is putting themselves in front of bullets for your rights. I have personally met several who repeatedly face bullets and IEDs because of their belief that they are protecting the rights and safety of civilians back home. You may believe their actions are naive or misguided, but that doesn't mean that they are all mindless drones motivated by purely selfish reasons.

Thanks for your family's service!

('family', because everyone is uneasy when a loved one is away on duty)

I think he isn't claiming that they don't believe it. He's saying that they're not doing what they think. I can fervently believe that I'm protecting American lives by slaughtering chickens in a yard, but that won't make it true.

As arjie stated, I don't think they're corrupt. I'm saying they're not serving my interests as a US citizen. My liberty isn't in peril, and if it were, I'd be the first to sign up with BDUs and rifle in hand (my brother served as a Marine).

As I said, no one is standing in front of bullets for my rights. I'll stand in front of bullets for my own rights thank you, when the time actually arrives that my rights are threatened.

Thank you for clarifying. While I still disagree, I can respect your opinion.

Well, technically speaking if there isn't anyone signed up with BDUs and a rifle in hand, then your liberty would be in peril. I mean, if the US government and her lands were just up for whoever wanted to call dibs, I'd take it.

That said, it stands to reason that the reason why your liberty isn't imminently in peril is because someone is already signed up and out there defending it.

To restate everything in broad terms: there's lots of people out in the world that don't like us. Your liberty is always in peril.

Do you want a totally anarchistic society, perhaps? I, for one, don't.

You make it sound like America doesn't have a large, well-off and well armed populace, with the backing of heavy industrial plants that can tool up for war.

I'm not saying America should have no armed forces, of course, but don't you think they're a little excessive?

scott_karana - What you're describing is true, but is closer to anarchy (which I'm not quite an advocate for).

Do I think the military forces have grown to an excessive level? Yes.

No, it's not. It's advocating what the founders originally intended, which was a well-armed militia that obviates the need for an Army. In time of war (on American soil) they would organize like an army to fight off invaders. They did advocate for a Navy, however, because it was (and I suppose still is) necessary for the establishment of free trade routes between nations.

I am former military, as an aside, and once found the notion of not having an Army pretty silly, but the notion has grown on me slightly.

Wow, just, wow. You've swallowed the war hawks' propaganda hook, line, and sinker.

I mean, if the US government and her lands were just up for whoever wanted to call dibs, I'd take it.

I'd like to see you try. You might just end up with a deeper appreciation for the Second Amendment.

Perhaps you philosophically disagree with the strategy of the upper management of our Military Operations - and rightfully so, IMO, on many counts - but it's a FACT that they are the ultimate line of defense for our nation's independence.

And without someone willing to put themselves on the front lines where the bullets fly, (to use a tired cliche) we'd easily be speaking German right now.

To take the stance that 'they're putting themselves in front of bullets for their own reasons, but not for me' is incredibly selfish and myopic.

Your other option is to try living in a country with a ragtag militia and government with an organized-crime-level-of-corruption. Let me know how that works.

And 'swank control room in Vegas'? You watch too many movies. :)

http://gruppodalm.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/drone-control-...

Swank.

Ok, I was wrong.

Way more swank than anything the Navy's ever put me in, that's for sure.

The reasons they are killing people right now do not include "our nations independence", or anything resembling it. That is just the propaganda line they use to sell the military to children in high-schools.

On some things, yes (and I take the position of disagreeing with the military's management structures, here).

On other things, no, definitely not. These are the actions that I consider heroic defense of our freedoms.

>To take the stance that 'they're putting themselves in front of bullets for their own reasons, but not for me' is incredibly selfish and myopic.

No, it is the result of a critical (and perhaps cynical) examination of and conclusion about the motives for the initiation and continuance of the war(s) our military is involved in.

>Your other option is to try living in a country with a ragtag militia and government with an organized-crime-level-of-corruption. Let me know how that works.

That's a ridiculously false dichotomy.

Of the number of military members serving, what percentage do you think are drone operators? Are you still comfortable with that characterization?

> That system is literally putting themselves in front of bullets right now

A fine thing. Deserving of respect, in most cases.

>to defend your right to have such misguided ideas.

That is tripe, and it is wasted on me. It is so well worn, and despite that I remain unaware of any imminent threats to my personal freedom other than from the Military-Industrial-Surveillance (and also Prisons and Police) Complex.

> I remain unaware of any imminent threats to my personal freedom other than from the Military-Industrial-Surveillance (and also Prisons and Police) Complex.

As someone who identifies as fairly libertarian, I'll give you that.

But it stands, to some degree, some aspects of the Military Operations of this country are necessary - and even supremely honorable in nature - in order for this country to exist as have whatever degree of freedoms we (still?) have.

When I see other members of the military putting themselves on the line like Manning did, they'll get my respect also.

Going above and beyond is part of duty. I'd like to see more of it. Nothing will change until then.

> What are you doing today?

Working to pay taxes so the salaries of public employees and military personnel can be paid.

There are _many_ individuals of the military that have put their lives on the line and some unfortunately had it taken from them. Some have done heroic acts that have not been revealed and others that just haven't been recognized. Just because you disagree with why they were put there doesn't make their actions any less admirable.

http://www.cmohs.org/recent-recipients.php https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Victoria_Cross_recipie...

Bradley Manning put his life on the line and has essentially lost it also.

He joined the military, saw that his organization was acting in a manner that was morally reprehensible and then did something about it. Of course, the same system replied in a manner that's just as morally reprehensible as Manning demonstrated.

The danger of rationalizing evil through the old truisms of "Patriotism, Security, Etc" is that it can corrupt those that rationalize it instead of saying, "This has to stop."

> they are putting themselves in front of bullets

It seems most bullets actually end up in the guts of unarmed foreign civilians.

<reposted correctly as a reply to toomuchtodo's comment. see it there.> /noob

> it's a FACT that they are the ultimate line of defense for our nation's independence.

It's a fact that the military-industrial complex exists to protect the military-industrial complex. Our nation's independence was sold to moneyed interests in the last century.

> government with an organized-crime-level-of-corruption.

We're getting there, military or not.

> It's a fact that the military-industrial complex exists to protect the military-industrial complex.

No it's not.

Really? Ever seen a business purposely try to make itself go out of business?

Getting there???

You should have seen what the government was like with patronage appointments, or under Harding. The corruption was literally institutionalized.

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