My Doctor's Office Asked me to Lie (2011)
stallman.org
stallman.org
Assuming this is a standard private practice, this office has several violations of 45 CFR §164.520(a)(b)(c), assuming that he was also not provided this privacy statement within 30 days with a reason for why it was not provided on the first visit.
This makes them liable for $50,000 in fines per failure to a max of $1.5 mm (this would be a clear cut case of reckless indifference.) The DHHS OCR is always looking for some head to serve on a platter to justify themselves as well.
His amendment to the form is damning evidence and that receptionist should be fired, there is no excuse for basic HIPAA noncompliance in 2011 (8 years after the fact).
Edit: What some people don't seem to understand is that signing the privacy practices notice (the form in question here) does not mean you agree to the terms and conditions outlined. You only sign that you have received them. Additionally, whether you sign the form or not it applies to you, and whatever that form states HIPAA clearly outlines what powers the covered entity (the doctor in this case) has over your information.
I've been given privacy statements from my doctors' offices in the past, and they've never been more than a couple of pages.
The law actually states what needs/should be written.
Here is an example [doc file]: www.ama-assn.org/resources/doc/hipaa/privacy-practices.doc
That said, places with their own websites need only upload the form and tell patients it is able to be viewed at at whatever link and have the binder accessible in the office for viewing.
Uploading to dropbox/filesharing without a website is not a valid option.
b) pdf
And the parent comment thinks its reasonable because their livelihood depends on this insane bureaucracy.
LETS TAKE ALL THE WORST PARTS OF FREE MARKET MEDICINE AND THE WORST PARTS OF SOCIALIZED MEDICINE AND PUT IT TOGETHER AND CALL IT THE U.S. HEALTHCARE SYSTEM.
A HIPPA privacy practices document is 4-5 pages at maximum. Perhaps all of the compliance materials for the practice would fill a binder, but not this particular document.
See the AMA's sample form here: http://www.ama-assn.org//ama/pub/physician-resources/solutio...
What's less pointless and far more upsetting is the practice of pharmacies instructing customers to sign/check the "I do not wish to have a consultation" area on forms when buying prescription medicine. That has happened to me at a number of pharmacies in NYC. When I ignore their instructions and start signing the area that requests a consultation they sternly tell me I'm signing in the wrong place. Then there's a big sigh when I say I actually want to talk to the pharmacist. Inexcusable and disgusting.
Like Berlin, they also seem to be a pretty underutilized resource.
That's also why it's important to always go to the same pharmacy if you can. If you switch to a new one, make sure to switch all your prescriptions at the same time.
If you have chronic conditions that require medication from a specialist, they are usually the folks who prevent you from having a harmful interaction when your GP or some other doc prescribes you something without asking or thinking.
The box is there because the NYC pharmacy is busy, and checking the box helps the to avoid being sued.
To get rid of this, I recommend the follows - a mandatory "minimum reading period" given for any document, that prevents it from being turned in, calculated from the average HS graduate reading speed.
Also, before any meetings regarding revisions of said document, everyone involved in revising the document must A: be present, and B: serially, read a copy of the document, invoking the reading penalty multiple times over.
Optionally, to avoid this process, the document can be totally scrapped and replaced with an entirely new document, provided the new document is limited to 1/10th the reading length.
This would greatly reduce the amount of stupid long documents, and I see no downside.
Most of us are supposed to sign documents full og legalese once in a while.
Is this satire or have you not thought this through?
Our society has decided as a whole to allow certain people to waste everyone else's time, with no penalties. We need some practical way to implement those penalties.
But it wouldn't reduce the number of documents that are long because they are documenting something very complex.
The privacy statement may be 3,000 pages because the author(s) were (collectively) incompetent, or because medical privacy is a highly complex field that has a lot of gotchas, and therefore requires a lot of legal logic to cover it all.
And that's how we get convoluted contracts.
Yeah, that won't work either and I'll tell you how I know.
Anecdote 1:
Almost everyone who uses a computer has encountered a EULA that one must click-through. We all ignore it and click "OK" or "I Agree" anyways, right?
Recently, I've encountered a few that won't let you proceed until you really have "read" it. They "enforce" that by not letting you click-through until you've scrolled down to the bottom of the textbox. The first time I encountered this it took a split-second to figure out, I hit Ctrl-End, and <TAB>'d over to "OK".
I thought about for a minute then hit "Back" a couple of times. I handed the laptop over to Stephanie, who was sitting next to me on the couch. "Hey, install this real quick for me while I run to the bathroom", I told her.
When I came back a moment later she says, "That was weird." "What?" "I had to click the scroll thing on the license all the way to the bottom before it would let me install." "That is weird," I said. "What'd the license say?"
She gave me a "are-you-serious?-like-i-actually-read-that" look and my experiment was complete. She's certainly more technical than most people but I'd wager that my mother (who certainly isn't) would also quickly figure out to simply scroll to the bottom to bypass it without actually having to read it.
Anecdote 2:
Several years ago, my then-fiancée, was required to take a four-hour online "driver education" course because she had received greater than "x" citations in "y" time.
For each section, you had to read a wall of text and then answer several questions afterwards. You were required to spend "x" amount of time reading it -- you couldn't proceed to the questions until that time had passed.
Lindsey just sat on the couch watching episodes of one of her shows on the DVR and every few minutes she'd look over at her laptop, click to the next page, and answer the questions. She didn't bother reading any of the text and once she got to the next section, she'd sit the laptop back down and go back to watching her show. At the next convenient break in her show, she'd click "Proceed" and answer the questions. Rinse and repeat.
Anecdote 3:
I worked at a .edu for several years and also taught many courses during my time there. On a few occasions, in the middle of a random block of text in a paper that I would hand out for the students to read and answer a few questions over, I would insert something like "draw a peace sign next to your name for 10 bonus points".
What I was interested in is whether they were actually reading the paper or simply jumping straight to the questions, reading the question and then quickly skimming the paper to try to find the answers. I didn't keep statistics but I'd say that perhaps 10-15% of the students would get the bonus points on a good day.
---
Now all of these are anecdotal, sure, but I think it illustrates quite well that us humans are quite capable of finding ways around whatever roadblocks stand in the way of whatever we want. In recent years, it seems that humans in general have become more obsessed with instant gratification (I am certainly guilty of this) and/or we've just become lazy.
When I was in school, I did not want to spend an hour reading a paper when I could instead jump straight to the questions, skim over the paper in search of the answers, and be done in 10 minutes either.
In short, I don't think there is any foolproof way of completely ensuring that someone reads a document. Don't underestimate fools. =)
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3958627 (516 points, 442 days ago, 234 comments)
(1)I post something.
(2)We discuss.
(3)After a time(likely a function of the # of stories that get pushed to HN a day), we stop discussion[1].
(4)Someone, after an arbitrary period of time, reposts.
(5)HN automatically moves the older comments over to the newer post[2].
[1]This is not to imply the conversation, has been resolved in any meaningful way, merely that we've elected to move on.
[2]This allows the conversation to grow without much re-treading of the old.
A year or two ago, I rented one of those storage units to put a bunch of stuff in (although really I should probably just get rid of it). The guy hands me a copy of a "rental agreement" to sign that's several pages long (printed on both sides) and says, "Just flip to the back page and sign there at the bottom."
Having never rented one of these units before, I was completely ignorant as to the "rules" or what might even be included in such an agreement so I really did want to read it (whereas most of us can probably guess 98% of what the standard HIPAA/Privacy Policy says).
When I get to the bottom of the front of the first page, I look up and the guy is clearly annoyed (despite the fact that he didn't appear to be doing anything important when I walked in -- he was on Facebook on his computer).
I apologized to him and explained, saying, "I'm sorry, I've never rented one of these before so I really don't know what's allowed and I want to make sure I don't do anything wrong." At the time I was genuinely curious as to what could or couldn't be stored in the unit. Could I keep some really old guns in there? Maybe I could park my motorcycle in it during the wintertime and free up some space in my garage?
I asked him if he had a FAX machine in his office and he said that he did. "How about if I take this with me so I can read it at home and then I'll sign the back page and FAX it to you?" I asked, thinking that he'd be happy that he didn't have to sit impatiently and watch me for the next 20 minutes as I finished reading the document.
"Okay, that'll work." I slid the document back over to him and asked him to write the FAX number on it. I gave him my credit card to cover the initial payment, he ran it and I walked out.
I actually did sit and read the whole document when I got home but I didn't really like that I was required to give them 90 days notice prior to terminating the agreement (30 days would be more reasonable, IMO). If I decided today that I was going to move everything out of the unit tomorrow, I'd still have to pay for the next three months (at $46 USD per month) even though I wasn't using it any longer.
I never signed the document and I never FAX'd it back. I'm sure the guy probably forgot all about it before I even made it home and I haven't been contacted by the company since -- regarding the document or anything else. Every month they charge my credit card $46 and life goes on.
I'll be moving everything out of there in a few weeks. When I do, I fully intend to walk into the office, hand them the key, and point out that I never signed the document and will fight any attempts to charge me the next three months worth of rent.
Like most people, I usually just blindly click through EULA's and sign whatever documents wherever somebody tells me to but in this case not doing so paid off. I certainly wouldn't have expected that I'd be required to give them 90 days notice before vacating the storage unit.
If I was in your situation now, I would walk in there today and announce my intention to move out so at least they have some notice. I might mention that I never signed the document because I wasn't comfortable with the terms, and see if they'll let it go. Worst case loss is about $100.
More importantly, I don't accept that other people treating you badly is reason enough to treat them badly. Not being able to give proper notice is one thing - purposefully withholding notice out of spite stemming from their terms of service.
To hell with that -- they'd happily screw me out of three months of rent, why should I feel bad for managing to not let them do that?
If I hadn't read the document (they clearly expected that I wouldn't and were quite surprised and perturbed when I did), they would have had absolutely no problem taking $138 from me for a service I wasn't using (the last 90 days).
Why should I feel bad for managing to keep $92 of my own money!? If I walked in on the last day and then they told me I signed the contract and was on the hook for the last 90 days of rent, do you honestly expect that I could simply say "oh, wow, I didn't realize that" and they'd let me out of it.
Please. It would have been "sorry, should've read the contract!"
Yes, you'd save $92, but in terms of your own life, getting out of it is worse for you than it is for them. If you go around the world not trusting and manipulating people, you experience the world as an untrustworthy and manipulative place. You will never be close friends with somebody that you cannot manipulate, and you'll never be close friends with somebody that you can really truly trust. These things might not matter to you until you're in a really bad situation, but by then it will be too late.
Look, I've done lots of things like this. I've put people into jams that they simply couldn't get out of with no visible harm done to me in the eyes of anybody else. Being manipulative gives you power and control and money, but not being manipulative gives you personal integrity. At this point in my life I would easily pay $92 for my personal integrity.
The right thing to do in this situation if you really felt like 90 days was walking all over you would be to take back the contract the very next day and either agree on 30 days or get your money back, possibly with a chargeback from your credit card. The second best right thing would be to give them 90 days notice. The third best right thing would be to go and talk to them right away. When I say "right thing" I mean "thing that is not somehow taking advantage of the situation". It's not about the money, it's not about the other party's behavior, it's about the kind of person you want to be.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrity
Also, the premise of "stick with exactly what was written down on paper and agreed to by both parties", while valuable in conflict situations where you've entered into a contract in good faith, is manipulative letter-of-the-law legal wrangling when the usual negotiation process has been abused to get out of signing something and the other party isn't even aware that you have different beliefs about the terms you've agreed upon.
I fully intend to walk into the office, hand them
the key, and point out that I never signed the
document and will fight any attempts to charge me
the next three months worth of rent.
I hate to break it to you, but that contract is enforceable. Pretending for a moment that this is something that would ever make it to court, you would be found in breach.In reality, what will happen is this: You'll refuse to pay. They'll casually send your account to collections. You'll get some phone calls from a collection agency and it will hurt your credit report. Ultimately, you'll pay them to protect your credit score.
Please explain. How can they enforce a contract he never signed?
I am not sure if this would fall under rental law, which I would assume requires a signature.
Now whether it is worth the effort to fight his logic is another matter entirely.
I would assume that the continued use of said storage unit makes acceptance of contract implicit.
Good luck to you, sir.
Signing the contract does that, and that's why he was asked (half-assedly) to do that. If anyone is liable for damages due to failing to properly conduct the company's business, it's our Facebook surfing friend at the counter.
The poster above read and understood the contract, and continued to pay the vendor with that understanding in mind. That is absolutely a legally enforceable contract. And in fact the post above is blindingly obvious proof of a bad faith intent to violate the contract. Sorry, there's no leg to stand on here. That's just not the way the law works.
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/05/identity-theft-la...
I can't get over the 90 days notice thing. For storage, that is ridiculous. It's not like they're going to start running ads in the paper for "Unit J-14, a 5x8 walkup". I've rented numerous storage units in numerous states, and I've never been charged more than the last complete month. (So OK, maybe I've been screwed out of 29 days, but I understand they don't want to mess with billing cycles or proration.) Also, I've never gone into a storage place and found any size I wanted unavailable. These places don't want to leave money on the table, so if they start filling up they either raise prices or build more units. If you never fill up, 90 days notice is ridiculous.
If he claimed he didn't see the contract, he would be committing perjury. They wouldn't bother to forge his signature because even if both parties legitimately forget the story about the fax machine, the court would likely still find the contract enforceable.
At absolute minimum, they'd have an oral contract. However, that oral contract is probably "You pay, and we'll both abide by the terms of my standard contract."
Now, that's not to say that the court will find the 90 day clause enforceable. The court may decide to enforce the contract as limited by industry norms, which may be 30 days. I don't know, but he certainly won't get away with paying nothing.
I should probably add, IANAL, but I'm also not just making this shit up.
Contracts exist to protect both parties.
Now, that being said - this would be a small claims issue and it probably isn't worth dealing with for $120.
Also--what you've suggested regarding collections is illegal. Ultimately, the storage facility would end up paying the OP significant damages and legal fees--after paying to clean up any economic harm they cause to his credit, and any economic harm he suffered as a result of such credit score damage.
Let's rephrase that:
You fully intend to tell them that you made use of their property without their permission and without compensation, and will attempt to fight any attempts to hold you accountable for what is, at the very least, repeated trespassing.
Yes, that's going to end wonderfully for you. However, there is a chance you'll get an audience -- a captive one, even -- for your interesting legal and moral theories.
Actually, they gave me a key and they automatically charge me $46/mo. Did you miss that part?
> repeated trespassing
Except that I have a key that they gave me and they haven't attempted to stop me from entering the premises.
Geez, at least read what I wrote before criticizing me.
He did pay them for he service, he just didn't agree to the terms and conditions pertaining to 90 days notice.
It probably wouldn't hold in court under grounds that once he became aware of the 90 day notice requirement and yet continued to pay for service he had implicitly agreed.
The very fact that he did not fax back the agreement would be a pretty difficult argument to counter.
If it weren't this way, then mutual misunderstanding (for example the actual contract two parties signed is simply flawed or doesn't state what they think it states) would preempt the terms the parties agreed to; moreover, it would mean that you could totally distort the reality of what the parties actually started doing (how they behaved) by narrowly technically reading the paper instead of the agreement.
I also think this is the source of common-law marriage: if two people act as if they're married, that's good enough after a while, even if the actual instrument is missing or flawed in some way.
What applies is their standard rules, whether you signed them or not.
In fact, because you didn't return the signed document clearly shows carelessness or malice on your side and will play against you.
Seems a bit odd.
Under 45 CFR §164.520(c)(2)(iv) any changes must be distributed to patients within 60 days. Additionally unlike most other agreements, for HIPAA notices of privacy practices you do not sign that you agree to the terms rather that you have seen the terms.
The basic idea is that the user wants something (in this case medical treatment, but it could also be music via iTunes) and that's all nice and well - BUT! - one last caveat, we need you to sign this thing here.
Now the ratio kicks in - if your desire for "the thing" is big enough, "the thing you need to sign" just needs to look both terribly unimportant ("yadda yadda, nobody reads this") but at the same time important enough to be understood as necessary ("oh everybody has legalese upfront these days, that's just the way things work, who cares"). Bonus points if the process you're going through happens very often to a lot of people ("everybody just clicks OK and chuckles about it").
Asking anybody to sign 3000 pages of legal statements without giving it too much thought is bonkers, but everybody just assumes "well, they probably can't do anything terrible, because our laws prevent that, right?". So we click through EULAs and sign agreements that are now just nuisances getting inbetween us and our desire for "the thing we want".
The people who make these agreements do them because they are required to have them, by law or circumstance (CYAs). Not having an agreement is not an option. The people who sign the agreements do that because they have already decided that they want "that thing" no matter what. Not having the thing is not an option.
What a profoundly weird situation. Through what I would guess were a couple of outlandish precedents, we now have established a custom that none of the involved parties cares about nor has anything to gain from, really. But we still do it.
It's like two sides playing soundwaves with opposite phases, cancelling eachother out. Everybody assumes that's ok, because it's quiet. But you could just as well simply stop playing the damn sounds.
I say very politely that I can't say that I have received the money until I actually have.
Usually the teller has this smile that means "here's another one of them". Sometimes they don't smile at all, and I had to really argue once or twice, but in the end they all accept my reasoning.
And since in its receipt capacity there's no other thing to issue to the company once they pay, they could pretty much just not pay and say "why would I have gotten a fapiao[receipt] if I haven't paid, dude?"
It's just amazing how many truly stupid things keep being done with finance, and I'm puzzled about how could they be fixed.
I once singed up for a gym membership that had terrible stipulation to the point it was offending. I plastered the entire contract with "no" and "not" additions. It still went through.
Who benefits here? Lawyers? Insurance companies?
It's like that fine print on TV commercials. No human can read it given the size and the duration on screen, but that company covered their ass by having it there.
I suppose I do like the provisions that prevent sharing information with marketers that came along with all the other laws, but would have been just as happy if that was left up to the free market. E.g. check this box for $50 dollars more expensive treatment or we might share your records with pharma companies that will market medicine to you.
Whatever the patient wants, how will she find that topic addressed in two paragraphs out of 3,000 (or even 20) pages? It's hard copy; there's not even a search function! A situation in which people are forced to surrender rights in order to receive service, especially if they've gone to some inconvenience even to get an appointment, is neither equitable nor just.
Otherwise you may as well just take a megaphone to null.
Things don't have to stay the way they are now.