Why Smokers Still Smoke | Hacker News Reader

Why Smokers Still Smoke

nytimes.com

37 pointsstevekinney60 comments

Smoking is a nasty habit and harmful to my body.

Now that that's out of the way, here are a couple reasons I smoke now and then:

1. Socialization. For whatever reason, it's easy to meet new people while smoking. You don't feel the need to constantly be talking so it's a pretty chill, low-pressure way to meet coworkers, especially those outside of your department.

2. Reflection. I think Ayn Rand said it best:

“I like to think of fire held in a man's hand. Fire, a dangerous force, tamed at his fingertips. I often wonder about the hours when a man sits alone, watching the smoke of a cigarette, thinking. I wonder what great things have come from such hours. When a man thinks, there is a spot of fire alive in his mind--and it is proper that he should have the burning point of a cigarette as his one expression.”

Obviously there is no requirement to smoke to get in a reflective state, but it is a trigger that helps me.

Reminds me of Rule No 1 for the GS Summer interns: If your boss smokes, smoke. [1]

[1] http://gselevator.wordpress.com/2013/05/31/congratulations-s...

I laugh at how seriously he takes himself.

I would add a #3.

3. Counteracting the negative effects of other chemicals that are used that day.

Any stimulant, whether its caffeine, amphetamines or pure adrenaline causes anxiety. That anxiety increases with the dosage of the aforementioned substances; leading to an increased desire of ending said anxiety (b/c you know...no one likes anxiety).

> Socialization. For whatever reason, it's easy to meet new people while smoking.

It's really only a good way to meet other smokers. You probably actually decrease your chances of meeting non-smokers. And in terms of relationships, many non-smokers will flat out refuse to date smokers.

As an anecdotal tidbit:

The reason I smoke is completely the opposite of what this article says. I do think about the long term effects, smoking increases my ability to focus and when smoking my product is of higher quality and my marks are higher. I'm trading my health later on for benefits now. Personally, I feel smoking carries less risk than cognitive enhancement drugs (I.e provigil) and causes less long term damage. I can deal with COPD and take immune boosters, eat healthy, and ensure I have an adequate intake of antioxidants to lower the risk of cancer. I also don't have a defective p53 gene.

I don't personally care if you smoke, but I think you are doing yourself a disservice by attempting to rationalize your choice to continue smoking and down playing the harm you are doing to your body.

If its just the nicotine you crave perhaps using an E-Cig could be helpful.. although nicotine is still harmful I think cutting out the smoking would probably help a lot.

I second that.

Try e-cigarettes, etc. to replace the cigarettes. Exercise also gives a cognitive boost. Get an exercise bike (or real bike) and do 5-15 minutes of interval training on it. Cut down on the sugar - coffee instead of soda, nuts instead of candy bars or donuts, etc.

e-cigarettes don't really work well because its not about the nicotine. They do give you something to hold and put in your mouth, but the experience is extremely unsatisfying to a smoker. If you go the e-cigarette route, I suggest quitting cold turkey for a couple of weeks or even a month then trying the e-cigs with the idea being that you would have forgotten some of feeling of real cigarettes. It is also incredibly easy to quit for short periods of time, e-cigs can help you avoid relapses.

Exercise is quite useful, especially in eliminating white spaces in your routine; i.e. avoid walking and bike instead. It is almost impossible to hold a cigarette and so you won't think about it while biking. Also, smoking is not very effective after exercise, your white space is used for muscle healing and the addiction pangs are muted.

The rest of your advice is not as useful: they are simply other bad habits that you should probably quit anyways and not related to smoking. If you have limited willpower, focus on killing one bad habit at a time. There is a reason people often get fatter while quitting smoking; they try to fill the gap with other bad ones.

But to each their own. Not-ever-smokers obviously can't give good advice about stopping because they don't understand the habit anyways; while smokers and ex-smokers are a bit diverse in what works for them.

>e-cigarettes don't really work well because its not about the nicotine. They do give you something to hold and put in your mouth, but the experience is extremely unsatisfying to a smoker.

Former smoker here, the experience is totally satisfying. I smoked for a good ten years, and quit immediately the day I got my first e-cigarette. That was almost three years ago, and I haven't wanted to smoke real cigarettes for a second.

I do have friends who've gone back to regular cigarettes, but (based strictly on casual observation) it's about a 50% rate of recidivism. And I see more and more people using them lately. Three years ago nobody knew what the hell they were, and lately I run into a surprising number of people who not only know what they are, but are excited to talk about their new battery mod.

Good to know. I couldn't really get into them, they didn't replace the reason I was smoking in the first place. All they could do was make nicotine craves go away, which I didn't really have a problem with anyways.

People are diverse I guess.

http://examine.com/supplements/Nicotine/

I wouldn't hire you just based on the fact that you smell like shit.

Well he did not ask you to hire him, did he? Why you felt the need to say this?

That escalated quickly. You can't tell me with a straight face that you wouldn't hire Don Draper on the spot.

Well, I hope you're not involved with hiring at all because you might have just opened yourself up to discrimination lawsuits.

It doesn't matter. Even if the interviewer doesn't state that as a reason, it still has influence. There's nothing really stopping that.

The states that have the ironically-named "smoker protection" laws prohibit discrimination based on the fact that someone smokes, not based on the fact that they stink to high heaven.

Figure out how to make those around you not want to vomit all day and you're fine. Otherwise, you're SOL.

You possess the most dangerous form of ignorance. You think you have it all figured out. You're little better than the heroin addict that thinks, "it won't happen to them."

He's not saying it won't happen to him. In fact he's explicitly saying he expects it to happen to him, but he's willing to forgo long-term health for immediate pleasure.

It may still be flawed logic, and also ignorant based on he may be underestimating how shitty stuff like COPD is to deal with, but not in the way you're describing.

That's exactly right. I know it WILL most definitely happen to me, it's just a trade I'm willing to make.

An applicable analogy is athletes and steroid use, they know what will happen but triumph and success in their 20's is worth it to them.

An applicable analogy is athletes and steroid use, they know what will happen but triumph and success in their 20's is worth it to them.

You're right. They're trading their long term health for multi-million dollar contracts. Let's examine what you're doing:

when smoking my product is of higher quality and my marks are higher

I'm reading this as you are a student and smoking gives you higher grades.

You're an idiot. Plain and simple. I don't say this lightly and have never insulted anyone on Hacker News - ever. But you are a colossal idiot that is just kidding yourself. It's one thing to trade years of life to make millions of dollars per year. I still think it's dumb, but I can see the attraction. But to do it for higher grades is just plain idiotic. And let's add that you are just rationalizing that it gives you higher grades. You have no proof that it does that. Really reconsider what you're doing to yourself.

So just buy pure nicotine, as gum or patches, or liquid? The smoking part is completely unnecessary to get the effects you want.

That's just it, its not the nicotine. It is the habit and the association (deserved or not) with relaxation and meditation. Non smokers don't really get that, and that is quite understandable.

Nicotine is also not the major danger in a cigarette (this is debated), but the tars and crap that burn and will really kill you. The problem is...the stuff that will kill you is part of the texture that makes the experience addictive.

Why not just use an electronic cigarette to get your nicotine fix?

I've been considering doing this recently as a mild stimulant.

As a smoker. Whatever the boost you get, you do not need it. In fact, when trying to quit you can get more productive just by trying to substitute chemical boost by intellectual boost (e.g. reading.) I smoke and appreciate the satisfaction of nicotine, but let's not rationalize out irrational behaviour.

On the other hand, it is annoying when people insist that we quit or want to imply it is an indicator of irrationality in general. If it is not illegal, let us do it. Whatever additional health cost for society, we are bearing it. Either directly, via increased insurance rates or indirectly via the exorbitant taxes we are paying. So why do you care? We do not need no nannies.

tl;dr Smokers seem to be worse at delayed gratification. And are more easily tempted into the easy/pleasurable choice, even if it's obviously a bad choice long term.

I have seen lately advertisement for electronic cigarettes. Are those better, worse for one's health. I don't smoke but was just wondering. They are hailed as a non cancer causing cigarette. Is that true? What about just a nicotine patch. Would smokers just prefer that so they can save money but still get the nicotine boost.

They are likely much healthier than cigarettes because it doesn't have all the nasty components in the smoke. Patches aren't going to give the satisfaction of manipulating a "cigarette" and the feel of inhaling the drug.

I hated being a smoker but enjoyed the smoking part....

Nicotine itself is safe (that is, it a neurotoxin, but so is caffeine; the dosis makes the poison for humans). The carcinogenic substances you inhale from smoking are mostly a by-product of the combustion process. Electronic cigarettes work similar to vaporizers and should be safe (pending research).

Also see gwerns articles on nicotine:

http://www.gwern.net/Nicotine http://www.gwern.net/Nootropics#nicotine

Nicotine is not "safe". It's less harmful than some of the other constituents of tobacco smoke, but it's still cancer promoting in itself:

http://www.wjgnet.com/1007-9327/full/v12/i46/7428.htm http://jnci.oxfordjournals.org/content/91/14/1194.long http://toxsci.oxfordjournals.org/content/97/2/279.long

Much like any drug, it is very difficult to know a priori without doing the experiment. It would be unethical to administer cigarettes or e-cigarettes in a randomized, controlled fashion, but we will probably observe over the coming decades the epidemiologic impact (much as we did for the consequences of cigarettes in the 20th Century).

Suggestive studies could be performed in whatever animal models have been most instructive for studying the effects of smoking.

> but we will probably observe over the coming decades the epidemiologic impact (much as we did for the consequences of cigarettes in the 20th Century).

Assuming that countries where such tests can be easily performed don't regulate them into the grave anyway. Uk and the EU are notably gearing up to kill them off.

e-cigarettes replace the habits. I used to smoke in the car. It was a stupid habit. Things like patches wouldn't help with that because I couldn't avoid being in the car.

It's not so much healthy, but dramatically less unhealthy. I think it's referred to as harm reduction, if you want to google that for more info.

It's like using stevia or splenda instead of sugar in your coffee or tea. In that case, you're still going to crave sugar. In the e-cigarette case though, you'll crave e-cigarettes perhaps instead of real cigarettes. I tried a real cigarette again after two months of using an e-cigarette and it tasted awful, burned my mouth.

Nicotine is bad for the heart and possibly the brain. You're better off avoiding it. However, electronic cigarettes are better than smoking. The cancer and lung damage come from inhaling particles. (In fact, it's not just tobacco; inhaling any particulate matter on a long-term basis is really bad. Tobacco's a common culprit because it's so ubiquitous; there aren't people smoking 30 pot or salvia cigarettes per day.)

I wondered about this myself. I smoked throughout the 90s, but have been mostly nicotine free since. Recently I spent a few weeks experimenting with e-cigs to see if I could get the nicotine high that I remember enjoying without my body feeling like crap. No dice. Puffing on nice-tasting, pleasant smelling nicotine vapor still made my body feel like crap at times, just like it did when I smoked analog cigarettes. I didn't feel it in my lungs so much, but I did feel like my blood pressure was elevated and my heart was a bit fluttery, and once it gave me a rather bad headache. A few times it felt really nice, like I remembered, but mostly I felt like I was just chasing that feeling, and not really receiving the satisfaction I wanted.

I canceled the experiment and gave my gear to a friend who still smoked analog cigarettes. He's quite happy having switched. He tells me his sense of smell has returned and his smokers cough is lessened. I noticed he no longer smells like an ashtray.

As a smoker currently trying to quit, this is particularly relevant to me at the moment. The problem with nicotine patches is that they only deal with the actual "physical" addiction, not the "psychological" addiction to the experience of smoking. I've been using nicotine patches for a while now, yet I still find myself holding things between my fingers, or chewing pens.

This is the huge advantage of an electronic cigarettte, it deals with both aspects; it does so a lot better than those nicotine "inhalers" that they have because of the look & feel of them and the appearance of the vapour they produce.

The downside to all nicotine replacement therapies is that nicotine is a pretty bad irritant; you can't wear a patch in the same place two days in a row and the gum can cause really sore throats and even mess with your digestive system. This is also an issue that most people overlook with the e-cigarettes, the nicotine in an e-cigarette concentrated enough to cause irritation of the throat and lungs, much like smoking. Obviously e-cigarettes are not dangerous in the way that cigarettes are, but if people think they're safe and decide to use them in the longer term there may be unexpected issues ahead.

Have you tried (gawd, I sound like an advertisement) Chantix? That med worked great for me, relatively speaking -- kept me off for 8 months (took the med for 2.5 months). A significant part of the program is developing alternative habits in response to stress and other such things that would usually cause you to light up. Admittedly, that part of it failed for me, but that was a combination of my own fault and the circumstance of a breakup, which gave me a pretty high stress level.

I will look into it, seems promising.

Thanks!

The medium for e-cigarettes is propylene glycol with nicotine. (There is also a vegetable alternative for people who have sensitivity to PG.) Allegedly inhaling PG doesn't have significant effects on the body.

I recently started smoking ("vaping") e-cigarettes, and while I haven't seen any immediate improvements to my health, a) I smell a helluvalot better, and b) I'm not putting carbonized paper and plant fibers (along with all the other flavorings and chemicals used in the tobacco production process) into my lungs.

And yes, they cost a lot less. Here in CA a pack costs about $5 and I know in NY it's over $9. An e-cigarette cartridge (equivalent to a pack) costs about $2.

A pack for $5! I guess while you in the States started the war against smokers, you are left behind. C.f. plain packaging and $18 packs in Australia :-)

Ouch. I visited Hungary and the Czech Republic around 2005 and a pack was about $2. In the US it was $4.

I'm not a smoker but as coincidence would have it today I was talking to some smokers outside work and a woman joined the group and "lit up" her e-cigarette. They're illegal here but she got it through the mail somehow. She said her pack a day habit dropped a lot not due to trying just due to the difference between the e-cigarette and regular cigarettes.

It was such a contrast between the little white sticks of smoke spewing paper and a glass and metal e-cigarette. The one the woman had was quite long because it had an extended battery pack, the vial of liquid peach flavoured liquid was visible, the mouthpiece was a formed metal end it reminded me of some sort of musical instrument.

Standing next to someone with an e-cigarette is very different than a regular cigarette you may smell the vapour if you're close enough but it's gone within a second. Regular cigarettes are like some sort of Charles Dickens creation in old London it may as well be coal smoke and ash chimney it lingers so long and is so strong in comparison.

I think the reason e-cigarettes are banned in my province is due to the nicotine containing liquid which I guess is far more dangerous than caffeine even in common bulk powdered form since a liquid on skin is more easily absorbed. I've read about nicotine levels per vial of 6mg to 18mg and the lethal dose for humans is 1.0mg/kg body weight so maybe it's possible a person could accidentally poison themselves if a vial broke and the liquid fell on their skin.

My guess is that the bans on e-cigarettes are due to their effectiveness in helping smokers quit, combined with their tax-free status. The governments of the world pull in billions on tobacco tax revenues.

Yeah, I have two friends who were both long term cigarette smokers quit after using e-cigs for a short period of time.

My understanding is that without the free-based nicotine in most (all?) commercial tobaccos, the addictive nature of smoking is significantly reduced.

Interestingly, one of those friends is now able to smoke socially at will. Flipped some addiction trigger or something. I would love to see a study on this.

I've heard people say the opposite i.e. that e-cigarettes make it too easy for people to take up smoking especially the flavoured tobacco which was also banned here. Although such speculation is just paranoid ranting without proof.

Does smoking cause bad self-control or does bad self-control drive people to smoke? I do not know the answer.

What I know is that I am nicotine addict and smoking addict. It is a habit that I go for a cigarette about every hour. It is like a clock in my head ringing to go for a cigarette after 45-60 minutes even though the nicotine withdrawal hits in around three hours. After that I usually will just go out of choice for a cigarette even if I have decided not to smoke that much for the day, because the withdrawal symptoms are annoying.

Then again I know for a certain that I am looking for activities that create lasting profit and happiness and avoid every kind of risky things like lottery. Even though I may once a year buy a lottery ticket to try my bad luck, but so does everyone else.

I do know that smoking has bad social risks like yellow teeth and bad smell. I do know that smoking causes health problems. Thing is. It is life and it is my decision to live with my addiction, where is the self-control missing?

One thing I have noticed since some of my friends have tried to stop smoking or actually have stopped smoking. They will still be the occasional smokers if they stay around other smokers and often that is the case, because smokers usually socialize with other smokers at the cigarette break and once you have quit you will still have that carving for another cigarette and some times the decision "maybe one" will rule them all. It's the ~20% club.

Nicotine addiction is not really the problem; you can get over that in a week. The problem is habit: want to go outside and think; talk to friends; kill some time while walking from point A to B? Would you rather think about smoking or just smoke and think about something else? For a smoker trying to quit, any whitespace/meditation time in your schedule is a potential for relapse. And its not just a matter of not smoking for a week, a month, 3 months, or even 6 months. It is a continuous long-road challenge to really stop.

Source: me.

Yes I do know that Nicotine addiction is not the problem. The bigger problem is the habit of wanting to go outside and think, talk to friends, kill some time while taking the dog out. Like I just went to smoke and thought about this and that about how people discriminate smokers and try to get us to stop it even though most of us avoid smoking while non-smokers are present. Though it is their problem if they hang around with smokers while they smoke.

Oh yes and I do wear a seat belt while I am in a vehicle if the vehicle has one for me.

Smoking is obviously bad, I think we all get that. I for one welcome "social pressure" as an effective mechanism for getting all of us to quit; its quite useful to limit the places that one can smoke, and to make it uncool when hanging out with a certain crowd, or even continuous admonishment from non-smokers. I would also be happy if cigarettes completely disappeared or were incredibly expensive; less temptation for me.

Smoking is not a personal problem, it is a societal one. Barring effective personal solutions, societal solutions will be more effective. Maybe they won't get you to stop smoking, but your kids probably won't smoke, and in a few generations it will be gone.

Consider that I never started smoking until I moved to a country at around 35 yro where smoking was common, welcomed everywhere but Starbucks, and cigarettes are incredibly cheap ($1.25/pack). It started out as a social habit at bars, and eventually turned into an addiction that I depended on for creativity. Now that I've associated it with that, and have been...more effective (coincidental or not)...its hard to just blow off the habit. Health or a successful career?

Oh and no, I never wear seat belts because they are always hidden in the taxis I take.

Addicts lack self control. Source: I'm a recovering addict.

Edit: Really, come visit an AA meeting sometime and watch everyone guzzle coffee and light up the second they get out the door.

I wish there was a data source that compared risky behaviors. Like smoking one cigarette is equivalent to driving 100 mph on a windy road is equivalent to not eating vegetables for a week. (just making those up)

The problem for me is that I really don't know how risky smoking is relative to other activities.

I know that it's risky. But, is it more risky than eating charcoal grilled meat or walking across a busy intersection?

About The New York Times (and other subscriber only content)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6111453

Funny to note, the study cited by the NYT was published by PloS, which was founded as an alternative to subscription based scientific journals and allows articles to be republished under Creative Commons.

I think anxiety disorders can also trap people in a smoking habit. I've heard that nicotine withdrawal can cause panic attacks. I've never smoked but I know what panic attacks are like and they really try the will power; they're so horrible that you'll do anything (except for something immediately dangerous) that you think can end one. Given how rapidly an ex-smoker "unquits" after lighting up the first time, one can imagine it being hard (for some) to get out of.

It does seem to be highly variable how hard it is for people to get out of the habit. Some just stop one day and lose the desire, but I also know a number of people who've "quit" several times but always fall back into it.

Without reading the article: the nicotine in the cigs trigger certain brain chemical reactions which impact feels so good it is sought-after again and again and again.

Nope.

Well that's what everyone knows. The question is, given the known pleasures and the known downsides, why do smokers not choose to avoid the downsides? And the answer according to the article is self-control.

I thought almost everyone knows that as well.

Without reading your comment to its end, I am confident that it would be a waste of time since you didn't RTFA.

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