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Comment by potatolicious | Hacker News Reader

This post makes me happy :)

> "Worst of all, PIH is probably not trying to make the world a better place through technology."

Don't worry, PIH, Startup Guy isn't either.

There are really two main camps of startup founders I've met. There's the type that really wants to bring a vision to life - they have a pseudo-religious fervor about something, whether it's gaming, transportation, lodging, or something else. They really want to change the world, and it's not just talk.

Then there are ones that are really in it to make money. They want to create a company, exit, and go do what they really want to do. Sit on a beach, roll up to the club in a Rolls Royce, travel, whatever.

It's a sliding scale. Every founder has some balance of being genuinely passionate about what their company does, and the desire to just cash out. All said and done though, the founders I meet tend to lean much further towards the latter than the former.

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I don't fit in those buckets. I have no external funding and no desire for it. I'm not in it to change the world or for a big exit - I'm in it for freedom.

Freedom to steer the business in the direction I feel is right. Freedom to work on what I choose is important.

The one advantage of this approach is that my primary focus is the needs of my customers, rather than the needs of my investors.

If you learn a lot of corporate strategy, you'll read about the importance of aligning the goals of your customers with the goals of your investors (and then you'll suddenly read that phrase in every earnings and annual report ever.) The idea being: there's an inherent paradox in trying to serve two mistresses, one who wants profit and the other who wants value.

Something that isn't touched on too much is that it's sometimes better to only have one mistress. When your customers are your investors, then your priorities and goals suddenly become a lot clearer.

sorry to be the guy that gets picky about words, but i think you mean contention rather than paradox

Whoops -- yep, you're right! (In my defense, it's very early and I'm very bad at words.)

I actually think "paradox" is a perfectly acceptable word in the context used. The common usage meaning - contradiction - is particularly apropos.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox

edit: fixed nasty typo

But also the "paradox" in this situation is that it's perfectly doable to meet the contradictory needs of value for customers and profit for investors at once. Many such dilemmas have paradoxical both/and solutions.

I'd say "conflict" is better term than contradiction or paradox, since we're talking interests and desires rather than logical propositions.

Never apologise for trying to make sense out of the world.

good point on misalignment...

Have you raised funding before? We had a similar stigma towards VCs and Angels with our company (bootstrapped up until a year ago); that they would just end up trying to steer.

Thus far (we've only raised a seed round so we haven't given out a board seat yet) after having raised about 400k in seed, my experience says the complete opposite, they don't even try to steer - I've learned far more than I ever would have dreamed of, having raised money from and talked to people that have done big and/or amazing things with their lives.

If anything, you have to learn to ignore Angel's advice - some of it is good, most of it isn't pertinent to your business.

BTW, you don't ever have to do anything an Angel says if you don't want to (unless you've given them a board seat).

VC firms are different though because generally, in your Series A, if you raise 2M from VC firm X they will usually ask for a board seat - when someone is on your board then they DO have a say. You usually balance this out though by picking a neutral third party person that is trusted by both to hold the third board seat (or if you can, preferably someone that is more loyal to yourself).

"big and/or amazing things"? Raised confident, happy children while maintaining their own happiness you mean?

I really can't think of anything else.

Unless you're talking about fixing poverty, disease or violence on a large scale in which case I'm surprised you've got the time to procrastinate on here.

> Unless you're talking about fixing poverty, disease or violence on a large scale in which case I'm surprised you've got the time to procrastinate on here.

How does that make any sense? Unless he's raised money from or talked to people that have worked on some of the biggest world problems you're surprised he has time to post on HN?

GP,WM

So you've decided to take my completely reasonable argument and throw an ad hominem back at me? I almost wonder if you even read the comment, or thoroughly understood what I wrote because your snide tone is so far off from my intention.

Lessons of the day:

    1. stop trying to be an internet bully, it's unbecoming
    2. not all investors are evil
    3. the world isn't black & white and when you think
       something is bad, it most likely means you don't 
       understand it or its context fully

Ad hominem? Where?

1 What? 2 What? 3 What?

To get back on topic, if you use hyperbolic and grandiose language to describe mundane experience expect to rub people the wrong way.

Also, what argument?

Where am I using hyperbolic and grandiose language? You also twisted my argument and tossed in a jab about procrastination - that is completely unrelated to the dialog (an ad hominem?).

The argument in which I defended the idea that not all investors are out to get you and that maybe black and white thinking could be expanded to be less absolute.

You are still not telling me what you disagree with without sarcastically attacking me. That's being an internet bully.

What? By describing the mundane as "awesome" of course. Do you even read what you type?

Twisted your argument? I'm ignoring your argument (I've just re-read the OP and I'm not actually sure what argument you're talking about) and picking you up on your odd choice of words.

Re procrastinating, I have never seen a post on hacker news from anyone who is doing big and important things. To my mind, and please feel free to correct me, this strange state of affairs is probably because they're busy.

Finally, to make it absolutely clear, as you seem to be having problems with this, I'm disagreeing with your abuse of the word "awesome".

Do you always call people who disagree with you, "internet bully"? What's the difference (other than the banally obvious) between an "internet bully" and a "bully"? There's a lot of irony floating around for a guy who doesn't seem too clear on what "ad hominem" means.

Do you even read what you type?! The fashion in which you are engaging me is distinctly not convincing me to see your point-of-view.

You've been a dick this entire conversation; your first comment was sarcastic and an attempt at attacking personal character (am I wrong, or is that not an ad hominem when you respond to something someone says by attacking their character instead of directly dealing with what they wrote - which you're finally starting to do in this comment).

Who are you to judge anyone on whether they've done big and important things? In my opinion, selling your company for millions is big! Brokering mergers between large corporations is big! Being the inventor of an innovative new technology is big! Does that mean they are now going to cure cancer? I don't know! Are those things important? YES because they are important to the people that experienced it.

"as you seem to be having problems with this" you're still being a dick here; if you disagree with my diction then fucking say that instead of being a sarcastic asshole. Be courteous and offer a reasoned argument about why you think my choice of words could or might be more appropriate. You still haven't convinced me that my expression was wrong.

There are people that disagree with me, then there are people that disagree with me and are assholes. The latter are people I believe to be an "internet bully".

"There's a lot of irony floating around for a guy who doesn't seem too clear on what "ad hominem" means." you're still being a dick here and you still haven't offered any actually helpful knowledge. If my use of "ad hominem" really is incorrect why are you not trying to help me? Why are you trying to tear me down? I'm still not convinced that my usage of the "ad hominem" was ever originally incorrect:

From the dictionary:

(of an argument or reaction) arising from or appealing to the emotions and not reason or logic.

From your comment:

Unless you're talking about fixing poverty, disease or violence on a large scale in which case I'm surprised you've got the time to procrastinate on here.

Is that not appealing to emotion (sarcastically attacking me) instead of providing me with a clear argument to tell me why you think "big and important" things should only include "poverty, disease, or violence"?

If you don't care what I think or engaging in a meaningful conversation, then why did you even comment?

Even if angles don't have a seat, they are still more trouble than their worth, IMHO. I personally won't seek funding from traditional methods; but luckily, the world is changing and there are some new non-traditional methods (passive income (subscription, or digital media download), donations to private companies, crowd funding, and who knows whats to come).

My company is "in the black," as it has made more money than I've put in, and holds no debt. I'm working on new business model than what I started with. I'm starting small, growing slow, and in it for the long haul. PIH Isn't a bad life, and it is a great way to make it SG w/o accelerators and networking exercises. And oh, I do care about making people's lives better with technology.

I think your point-of-view might be a bit parochial. I certainly wasn't arguing that Angels (or VCs) are trouble-free routes for funding a venture. They certainly are difficult, take up a lot of time, don't always know what they are talking about, emotional, &c... However, of the ones that you nab that are smart, experienced, and a joy to work with - make it worthwhile.

They can be a lot of trouble, but if you're trying to grow (and I don't think outside funding is appropriate unless you want to grow fast or build something that requires a large amount of capex - like hardware) I think the "funding" culture is essential in elevating the founder's ken.

I think PIH is awesome, I have many peers that I would consider to be living that life - so the whole thing is very subjective. I'm primarily arguing against the false notion that investors are bad (only some are), are a waste of time, or "take over your company" (some do, and even then it's only because the founder(s) weren't versed in the "game" and politics of fundraising).

That's about as close as "changing the world" as most people can dream to get.

You might feel it sounds too grandiose for your actual goals, but a lot of people have no shame in uttering it.

My favorite founders are the ones that are in it for the journey. You have to look hard to find them but they're out there.

Well, since this in HN, maybe we could throw out a few. In particular, which ones qualify in NYC?

I work at one, we're in DUMBO. My email is in my profile, and yes we're hiring ;)

This has been my experience as well. The people that actually care about building and designing things tend to be the builders and designers. Maybe thats why most non-technical / non-design founders I have known seem to really just be about the money.

Ehh, I wouldn't give the builders and designers a free pass either. I've met just as many engineers and designers who are in it for the money.

All in all the people who genuinely want to change the world and are willing to put their money where their mouth is, are very few and far between. Regardless of their profession or background.

The dissonance is that startups, particularly VC-funded high-growth startups make a lot of noise about disruption, changing the world, and the such. But somehow, with few exceptions, when push comes to shove they will take the exit over their vision.

The disruption is a reputation, a stereotype, that does not really hold sway the more we see developers and business people enter the industry from more traditional educational institutions.

> Maybe thats why most non-technical / non-design founders I have known seem to really just be about the money.

Not to pick nits, but I think the dichotomy you're setting up here is silly. Business administration or leadership are skills as technical as coding or design, and if done correctly, can be more so.

With that in mind, there's an art to making money. Just churning over cash in the short term doesn't have that. Building a brand that can last for a century takes a genius.

Good point. Maybe a more important distinction is how someone evaluates the product. Do they think its a success just because it made a ton of money? Or do they have some more intrinsic measures of what makes it good, and look at the impact it actually has on people? With that in mind, I can see how a gifted business administrator can do their job (maybe make the company money) while being motivated by the more intrinsic stuff about the company. I guess I just try to stay away from people who's ONLY yardstick is how well it sells.

Paraphrased via The Founders Dilemmas: There are two types of founders - money oriented and control oriented. A good HBR article about the topic: http://hbr.org/2008/02/the-founders-dilemma/ar/1

Here's the problem with that... False assumptions being made in the article include: - You need venture capital to be successful - The goal should be public trading Cargil, Koch Industries, Mars, LAMPO Group and many others remain privately held. - You can measure the potential for financial success of a company in some real tangible way, and tell how close you are too that potential.

I also don't think that money and control are the only two orientations to have here. Or perhaps there are subgroups to money and control orientation.

For instance, Fred Rogers (Mr. Rogers) wanted to pass on his show to another; but, couldn't find someone who met his high standards of morals, communication skills, and permeability. After his death, the Fred Rogers Company (formerly Family Communications) did launch a new show, and it was still important enough to get Fred's widows blessing before it aired. Is that control oriented, or is quality oriented?

Or take a look at company founding CEOs that have missions or beliefs that forbid them from taking shortcuts to maximize profits, like an unwillingness to outsource to parts of the world that treat labor like cattle. Is that simple "control orientation?

I am control oriented, and for that reason won't take on debt, venture capital, investors or partners. I am clear, it is mine, I have a vision for it, and you can't have it or pervert it. Profit isn't as important as delivering a good product and actually touching lives.

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