DMT, the NeXT and the Soul of the Human/Machine | Hacker News Reader

DMT, the NeXT and the Soul of the Human/Machine

stone.com

136 pointsimfreemind60 comments

I can't wait for the social media IPO coke binge hangover to wear off and the Valley to rediscover its roots as a hotbed of real innovation, real intellectual daring, and the courage to dream big and then do it.

Bigger and better things than, you know, Facebook games and click through ads.

"The best minds of my generation are thinking about how to make people click ads. That sucks." - Jeff Hammerbacher

They knew what they were signing up for.

Maybe their minds are not that great after all.

Even great minds need to eat. The problem is that truly daring, innovative work simply doesn't pay that well. It's an uphill battle at best, and a vow of poverty at worst. There is very little funding for hard, long term, daring projects.

The other problem is more systemic and less confined to tech. Most of the people I know under 40 are shackled to student and other forms of debt and home ownership is utterly unthinkable to them. (So they have no way to ever escape paying rent to the rentier class.) They have no "fuck you money," or even enough slack to contemplate changing course. They have to go for whatever pays the best even if they hate it and even if it's stupid or they have no hope of ever escaping the indentured servitude of the debt-financed college degree.

Combine that with real estate hyperinflation and you have a formula for an economy that encourages premature convergence on local maxima:

http://repositorium.sdum.uminho.pt/bitstream/1822/4291/1/P07...

"best minds" needs many air-quotes attached.

At least we now know that they are also helping to protect the free world.

I prefer to think of this as the on-ramp. Learn your craft by selling eyeballs, or some other relatively trivial technology, make FU money, and then go and do something real. The archetype of this is of course Elon Musk.

I know that what drives me is the hope that one day I will have amassed enough money that I can stop going to work for somebody else, and instead choose to work on what interests me.

But how much money is that? I mean the median income in the US is less than $30k. Live on what most people in the US live on, and with the outrageous hourly rates of most consultants you can do for-pay work about 10 hours a week and have the rest of the time to yourself to work on what you want?

Why does it take millions of dollars to be able to do good work?

is it hard to "stay in the game" unless you're giving it 110% of your energy?

It takes millions of dollars to make space ships.

Elon Musk fully funded SpaceX with his own money?

He's put hundreds of millions of dollars of his own capital into his ventures, yes.

Good work != space ships.

Because most people don't get to charge the "outrageous hourly rates of most consultants"?

The original intention of Paypal, once it pivoted from Blackberry payments to online banking, was hardly trivial. Their goal was to be something akin to Bitcoin before Bitcoin.

As they scaled, regulatory realities set in... but to trivialize Elon like that is foolish imo.

I did say "relatively trivial" and yes, I stand by that: PayPal is relatively trivial compared to the sheer scale of the ambition of companies like SpaceX and Tesla

>I prefer to think of this as the on-ramp. Learn your craft by selling eyeballs, or some other relatively trivial technology, make FU money, and then go and do something real. The archetype of this is of course Elon Musk.

The archetype?

For one, he worked on real stuff from the beginning -- not ads or social crap: online publishing and payments.

Second, even if he fit the profile, he would hardly be an archetype, because I don't see many (if anyone) following on his footsteps.

People making FU money and leisuring or working on pet hobbies I do see. But people making FU money and "going and doing something real", well, can't think of anyone. There could be 2 or 3. I doubt there are ten.

Or writing high frequency trading battlebots.

I was on IRC back in the 1990s, back when EFNet was a battleground for bot wars over taking over channels.

I chuckle when I think back to this and realize this is what world markets have become: a place for k-r4d 31337 d00d3z to totally pwn the market, l0l.

It's not going to wear off until things are restructured. As it is, there's the story of the occasional person who makes it big on an IPO that goes out, which stimulates the rest of the start-up "community" to go off and flog the next great thing, trying to get a cadre of twenty to one hundred people to give up their lives for a few years so that perhaps four or five of them can cash out and have the vaunted bundle of "f you" money, if for a few months, until the IRS comes and audits them, taking most of it, if not all, away, and the cycle begins anew.

This is the first I've heard of the IRS retroactively taking most of the proceeds from selling stock. Is this a real threat? How should you protect yourself?

I heard you should register your stocks when they're worth nothing, pay 100% of 0 on taxes. Not a lawyer.

From what I can gather, startup culture is a weird toxic mix of aggression, advertising hucksterism, cheesy motivational-speak, masculinity, and a pseudo-belief in letting the free market determine value.

I wonder what "restructuring" you have in mind though? It seems stronger wealth redistribution and higher taxes could be one form of structural change that might eliminate get--rich-quick schemes.

Yeah. One of the biggest things I've learned about startup culture is this:

Even if you want to do a startup, avoid "startup culture" and the "startup scene" like the plague. Just build something, launch it, and market it, and ignore all that noise.

Not calling your thing a startup at all can be a good start. Call it a project, or a business, or whatever.

Startup culture has mostly become a get-rich-quick scheme, and most of its participants will go where the money is.

If the less risk-averse minority believes innovating will make them a quick buck, they might give it a go. The majority, however, will try to follow the rest of the lemmings to the pot at the end of the rainbow, which right now seems to be Facebook games, iphone apps, and web services.

Getting rich quickly leaves more time to do the really great things. It all depends on what the goal is. Money is just a tool.

What's with this "social media bad" meme that seems to be so pervasive around here nowadays? Last I checked, looking for new and better ways to connect people was a Good Thing.

Social media isn't bad per se, but there's definitely a lot of money going to a lot of ideas in that sector that are both unsustainable and boring as hell.

There have barely been any IPOs compared to the 1990s.

I think it's entirely possible that the next period of real innovation will be happening somewhere else - and it's possible it's already started somewhere, and that all of us in the Bay Area can't see it over the noise we're generating

I have a suspicion this could be the case. The cost of living in the Bay Area seems to me as if it does not permit experimentation or DIY anything.

I don't disagree, but after reading the OP I feel like you might be feeding the wrong wolf! :D

I could stand never to hear this comment again. I don't think you can zoom in so close on the graph of innovation and see anything.

I also don't see how the narrative even fits in a world where we've seen Google, SpaceX, Tesla, and the Apple smartphone revolution emerge from the Valley recently.

Facebook, social, and the boy-hacker culture is just one thread in the recent history of the Valley. I do find the systematization of "get-rich-quick" to be interesting in of itself, though.

I think the spirit of it still very much alive, growing just as it always has. It's only being veiled by the big IPO social media coke binge (etc etc...) projects.

Just look at hot huge github has become in the past five years. not to mention open source linux distros, which have arguably taken over Microsoft in the 'best desktop OS' field lately (yet still behind, in my opinion, OS X). There's also new devices like Raspberry Pis, Arduinos and Beagleboards, which are bringing a new age in 'open source' learning. It's a rather amazing time we're living in, actually.

This spirit definitely still lives on in the Bay Area and tech world in general, but I think it's slowly being squashed by the sheer number of people who are going into tech for money (and only money).

Changing the world, connecting the "we", expanding consciousness are secondary to "crushing it". The things the author talked about in that article are seen are hippie, raver, or burner...

Why try to make this happen in the bay anymore when you're going to have to fight simply to get a room that you pay $1200 for? Better to flee to cheaper areas where you can have more time to hack and work on hippie projects. Or Oakland? I don't know.

On a sidenote, these guys seem to be fighting the good fight for this cause: http://freespace.io/events/

Anyone curious about the very strong psychedelic-PC connection should read John Markoff's book:

"What the Dormouse Said: How the Sixties Counterculture Shaped the Personal Computer Industry" http://www.amazon.com/dp/0143036769

Love this article. It makes me think of my friends who are all techies, but somehow we're all hippies, only in our late twenties/early thirties.

The culture Andrew envisions is still alive and kicking. It's never on the front page, but it's always there, guided as ever by psychedelics and love of creating.

Next up: the Hippie Makers.

> If you are an indie following your heart, your passion and your dreams, then a world of individual sovereignty, collaboration and interdependence becomes possible.

> or will we use the technology to set ourselves free?

> a universe of possibilities when we each come from a place of We instead of I.

I've always thought of psychedelics use as a trade of Seeing for loss of self identification. Unless you can alternate between those states freely - it's pointless and you are shackled either way.

If everyone tells to "think outside the box", ironically - that's what box becomes to. A virtual reality - distorted picture of real thing and source of Terence`s 'Alien love'.

You know, I used to think that way.

This isn't something you "alternate". There's a way of being where you can be in unity consciousness at the same time you are experiencing duality and the material world.

The other thing is that, any picture or image or story you form is always going to be the distortion of Reality. Reality is inherently non-dual, so defies description (even what I just said). It means, to be free of whatever box you find yourself in, you are constantly mindful of the present moment.

Sure, just saying this will give distorted teachings. Mystics from ages past have always tried to speak of this, and it has always distorted into things like "religion" for the masses. This is fine though. This is part of the human experience.

> always going to be the distortion of Reality "Food you cook from scratch doesn't need a nutrition label."

> This isn't something you "alternate". There's a way of being where you can be in unity consciousness at the same time you are experiencing duality and the material world.

I made a song about this: https://soundcloud.com/lapsa/vk (quote by Castaneda)

It's "finding yourself in" step what's important.

Groovy.

>I've always thought of psychedelics use as a trade of Seeing for loss of self identification. Unless you can alternate between those states freely - it's pointless and you are shackled either way.

Only if you consider "loss of self identitification" a negative.

As I said - just pointless.

Ego is what enables empathy. It's a tool that makes it possible to "become something" in your mind and understand from within.

What good it is when it's in size of universe? Everything just looks alike. Striving to understand universe as a whole is pointless - you just hit infinity right away by the very fact you are trying to achieve.

This dimmed vision hits emotions too. When those start to look the same, man starts to seek "stronger" and more colorful emotions. Also - that is why loss of self identification is seen as a highway to addiction and scares so many away.

>Ego is what enables empathy.

Emm, actually the inverse. It's be overcoming ego that you have empathy.

>What good it is when it's in size of universe? Everything just looks alike.

Why would it be "the size of the universe"? The idea is to eliminate ego (as in egotism and seperation), not expand it.

You still have a self, obviously (else you would be in a vegetative state). You just don't give it outmost precedence over everybody else.

> Why would it be "the size of the universe"? The idea is to eliminate ego (as in egotism and seperation), not expand it.

I think that that's what elimination of ego is - expanding it in explosion like fashion till you can't figure where the boundaries are at.

And egotism is a complex thing. Your kitty cat doesn't care what you think, you are the one that gets polarised.

"US publishing houses did not buy in, sales faltered. And this is where Steve wandered from his path - he began courting the Fortune 500 and the dark agencies - NSA and CIA - because these people could afford his expensive machines."

Thought this was interesting...

For anyone who is interested in LSD and/or DMT, I highly recommend heading over to reddit.com/r/lsd or reddit.com/r/dmt.

Long and short of it is, yes, these drugs can change your life, yes, these drugs can fuck up your life, and no, the results are not predictable.

Anyone considering taking mind-altering drugs, I urge you, please give nine minutes of your time, and spend each of those nine minutes listening to the first nine minutes of this video, Ayya Khema "Why Meditate ~ 4 Kinds of Happiness"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zAQU8MEHnM

Thank you, that is all --DBP

P.S. If you're really pressed for time, just listen to the one minute between 5:00 and 6:00.

"... here's a technique you can employ in a minute: inhale deeply through your nose with power, exhale, repeat until you can't stand it. Hold your breath. When you feel the rush, stop, let go, and let it unfold. You'll experience the onset of the DMT experience. With practice, you'll learn to go through the portal, without drugs except the ones produced right in your very own body."

Aren't you just hyperventilating when you do this? How is hyperventilating yourself a portal to new consciousness?

That sounds unintentionally negative. I'm genuinely curious.

Well, oxygen deprivation does get you high... That happens to be one of the main reasons why huffing volatile chemicals is so much fun.

He simplified things.

There are some technical details like: allowing the diaphragm to expand fully, the ribs to expand, and the collar bones to expand. Other details such as: doing this while relaxed (relaxed enough to let go of volitional control over the breathing while still being aware of the movement), not forcing the breath, where you can't hear the breath.

Hyperventilation, as in, nervous or panic reaction usually coincides with shallow breathing, where the diaphragm and ribs don't move much, if at all. You don't circulate much oxygen. The technique the author is talking about significantly increasing the amount of oxygen circulating in your body.

Finally, the most important point. This isn't something you can dissect from the outside. You try it and experience it.

If interested, I believe he's talking about something like Holotropic Breathwork, pioneered by Stan Grof. I've heard great things..

I loved that little essay.

If anyone is interested, there's a 27-video playlist of the author speaking about his experiences with DMT for the Spirit Molecule documentary.

His commentary is my favorite out of all the participants. Very heart-felt and fascinating:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WM_PJoDA2lo&list=PLC3FC3395C9...

Wow, loved this, brilliant read, gives me hope for the future!

I loved reading it, but it actually made me concerned. Maybe it's just where I stand, but it seems that culture has slipped far from where it was.

Generally, the people I talked to who have taken entheogens feels that about the world in general. But the same attitude is there for accomplished yogis and meditators too.

Very interesting article. As a side note, does anyone have links to solid research on the long term effects (physiological and psychological) of these psychedelics? It amazes me how little conclusive information there is, although I know gov stifling certainly hasn't helped.

Anyone have a 1-page version of this?

Here is the PDF version (http://stone.com/dmt/DMT-NeXT-and-the-HumanMachine.pdf).

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