Uncle Bob Responds to DHH, Defines Professionalism | Hacker News Reader

Uncle Bob Responds to DHH, Defines Professionalism

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18 pointsluigi27 comments

"Professionalism does not mean rigid formalism. Professionalism does not mean adhering to beaurocrasy. Professionalism is honor. Professionalism is being honest with yourself and disciplined in the way you work. Professionalism is not letting fear take over."

That may be his definition but from my experience, when I hear people talking about professionalism, they're usually either using it as a way to complain about someone else or to boost their own ego. I haven't known many people to think of professionalism as defined above. Seems like more often than not, its used as leverage to argue for exactly what he says it does not mean.

Professionalism means doing the right thing even if it's personally unpleasant. A vet putting a sick kitten to sleep for example. Or a salesman who tries to sell the product the customer actually needs, not just what has the biggest margin.

Great comment from Avdi Grimm:

Something that DHH still doesn’t seem to grok is that some of the most prominent artists and rock stars in this world are deeply professional people. The members of U2, for instance, are professional musicians in every sense of the word. That doesn’t make them any less artists.

It doesn't surprise me that the members of U2 might be "deeply professional". They're a multi-billion dollar media enterprise. For the same reason, it doesn't surprise me that Neko Case once jumped off the stage and punched out a heckler. She made $340,000 of the album before her last, and plowed $300,000 of it back into the band. Of course, she's an artist, not a multi-billion dollar media enterprise.

100% agree, as artists who make money aren't artists anymore. To be a Real™ artist, you have to be so passionate about what you do that you don't make money from your work. The more unprofessional you are, the more of an artist you become.

/sarcasm

Your point is taken. Making a billion dollars would not have made Elliot Smith less of an artist. But U2 is still a really bad example.

I hear you. Actually, if I can hijack this thread with something tangential, can you tell me why U2 gets no respect? You're not the first person I've heard to have a low opinion of them. I only know their singles, so I really have no idea why a lot of people look down on them as some sort of sell-out band.

I still listen to War, Joshua Tree, and Achtung Baby.

I respect, but do not love, the artistic decisions they made with Zooropa and Pop.

Since Pop, they've reverted to a cookie-cutter mega stadium act. Their albums contribute nothing that they themselves haven't already contributed. Their theme material is superficial, rehashed, or sometimes nonexistent.

Meanwhile, they continue playing shows with $250 top ticket prices under 360 deals with Live Nation, the Gordon Gekko's of the entertainment industry.

I don't think U2 is evil. I just don't think they're anything more authentic or credible than, say, a Jerry Bruckheimer movie.

" ... than, say, a Jerry Bruckheimer movie."

Man, that's cold.

It's cold because I'm right.

U2 repackages cool for sale - they do not generate new cool of their own. Same as Madonna.

Also there's that business of Bono sheltering his own money offshore while campaigning for more aid spending from taxpayers.

Willie Nelson stopped paying taxes altogether and wound up $17MM in debt to the IRS. He's still an artist!

Because popularity == crap. By definition if it's super popular it can't possibly be anything other then a lowest common denominator.

Except that occasionally things which are much better then average become popular without comprising their art, and then people still think popular == crap, even when it's not.

I assume this means you think U2 is much better than the average indie artist making $300,000 per album, right?

Nope, my post above is neither an endorsement nor a critique of Mr. Bono Vox and his marry men. Actually I liked what you said here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=604154

uh, Bono is a columnist for the NY Times.

And a private equity investor. What's your point? Is Maureen Dowd an artist too? How about Michael Milken?

was intended to be a joke equating being a columnist with being professional.

The concept of "I should have run it by my wife when I equated estrogen and insipid" is pretty stunning. Shouldn't everyone know that might offend people?

Just shows that someone who needs to run his opinions by his wife for approval might sometimes need little time off to be a Macho Man(TM) on the internet.

When I am programming I need a sense of aesthetic to choose among all the possibilities. I strive for clarity and expressiveness just as any other writer. When discussing a design with other programmers, I know that ugliness is always a strong argument.

It's no surprise Richard Gabriel proposes a bachelor of fine arts in software: http://www.dreamsongs.com/MFASoftware.html

I don't like the word professional. When I mention I make comics, those who ask if I am professional really just want to know if I make any money. But just like I program, I make comics with great patience and attention to detail, and to get through the painful parts I need the kind of discipline and seriousness you could call professionalism.

s/beaurocrasy/bureaucracy/g

I know it's nitpicky but it struck me as a really odd oversight in an otherwise very strong piece of writing.

Can we just conclude that the Ruby/Rails/Whatever community is just a big loose and move on? I mean, really guys...

I have no direct connection to Ruby (thank god). But the lead/prominent people seem super immature and mostly unskilled, and half of every programming news aggregator on earth is filled with ruby/rails-drama every 3 days. Just... "ugh"...

Can we all just use python or lisp and give up on these guys already? Ruby really isn't that great, frankly (reminds me of the worst, not the best, parts of perl, smalltalk and lisp combined).

Maybe I'm being too judgemental anout the language -- but at least invent a new Ruby-derivative called "Muby" :-), and put people in charge who (a) know how to write code and (b) are not drama-seeking children.

From the little ruby i know i find it a very nice language, but i too am sick of all the drama. Thats why i mostly try to ignore it. I would love to see more articles about cool ruby hacks, but i get useless rhetoric instead.

Yeah it's like there's no RMS, no Linus, no Alan Cox, everyone in the Ruby world is ESR.

Deleted comment

What else do you think people do on comment threads? Or do you think every shared opinion must be positive? :-)

BTW, read the comment again -- I'm not that interested in Ruby, why would I bother? It was just a suggestion after all...

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