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Comment by notacoward | Hacker News Reader

"I'm not sure that Starbuck's or other coffee shops view their mission as providing for the needs of people with a place to sit for a few minutes while waiting for a friend."

Actually, that has been part of the coffee-shop value proposition as long as there have been coffee shops. It's why they have seats in the first place. They're selling comfort as well as coffee. Obviously those seats are supposed to be for those who have purchased something, but within that context the social-connection role has been part of the equation for far longer than the WiFi-connection role.

"I somehow doubt this."

Doubt and rationalize all you want. It won't change the facts.

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> Actually, that has been part of the coffee-shop value proposition as long as there have been coffee shops.

Selling coffee is the mission. Providing a place to hang out -- whether for a few minutes waiting for a friend or for a longer time -- is something that may, for some shops, be a means to advance that mission. But I don't think its the mission, or even a core service. If it was, they'd be selling that directly.

> Doubt and rationalize all you want. It won't change the facts.

The unsubstantiated speculation that the people that are doing not-buying-coffee things that you don't like are worth less to the coffee shop than people (including you) who you feel are being blocked by them in your desire to do not-buying-coffee things that you do like is not in any way established to be part of "the facts".

It's not unsubstantiated speculation. Read the damn story. It gives multiple examples of proprietors who are concerned about the impact the squatters are having on their bottom line. Are they all fools? Au contraire, they probably understand their business far better than either of us. There's even an example of a store that cut off WiFi and demonstrated a 30% increase in revenue. Those accounts are further reinforced from the consumer side by people right here who have said that they regularly walk out of coffee shops when they see those are full of squatters - a clear loss for those businesses. Are they all liars? Or is it just slightly more likely that the world is actually not as you'd wish it to be?

Your use of the word "squatter" is somewhat offensive. I'm sure of the coffee shop owners/employees asked them to leave, they would comply. Squatting is a legal term and typically implies hostility towards owners/rightful occupants.

For one, it saddens me that when I travel and need a place to drink coffee/eat a snack and catch up on email, I might be viewed as a "squatter" the minute I pull out a laptop...

The article uses "hobo," which is perhaps less offensive :)

I tend to camp out, or "squat," at coffee shops early in the mornings when they have very few customers anyways (true here at least, not in the states of course with more of a morning coffee shop culture). It's never really a problem because I'm gone before it gets busy, but I can see why there would be resentment.

Basically, if you are going to squat, don't go when its busy. Sometimes at night, for example, SBUX might be actually busy, but usually due to other squatters, so no guilt there.

Your notion that the word "squatter" is offensive is offensive to me. Squatting is a long, proud tradition whereby property is taken from the greedy or dead and redistributed to those who are actually in a position to use it. Squatters are the rightful owners of property, both in spirit and in many places in law. It is a well established legal precedent that the needs of the living trump the wishes of the dead, and squatting laws were created to honor that.

I'm not suggesting that you're doing something wrong the minute you pull out your laptop. I don't think anybody is. It's all about how much of the finite seating resource is consumed for how much business. Somewhere down-thread is another comment about the purchase price for a cup of coffee being only partly about the coffee but mostly about the experience. Yes, and that's just as true for the person who only needs to sit down for ten minutes. They paid just as much for their coffee as the person who has been there all afternoon, they have just as much right to enjoy that experience, but all-afternoon guy is effectively crowding out dozens of such others. That's simply not fair.

I'm generally not affected by this myself, BTW. I don't go to coffee shops very often, and have only brought my laptop (sans power supply) a few times. The longest I've stayed has probably been a bit more than an hour. I've done more "squatting" at my local McDonalds, which has better WiFi and is practically empty in the mid-morning so nobody cares. However, I consider it a basic rule that if somebody else is waiting for something and you've had your turn then you should yield. If you don't feel that you've had your own fair turn yet, then by all means make the newcomer wait. No problem at all. This is only about the people who seem to feel that they're above that basic rule.

Coffee shops are similar to book shops wrt providing a frreebie, i.e. wifi in coffee shop and reading latest instore mags in bookstore. Iusually bought one mag after spending an hour or 2 reading thru them to show my appreciation. Iresented it when bookshops started displaying their magazines wrapped in plastic only. Icouldnt even read the contents. Isuspect coffee shops will get the same reactions if they cut off wifi.

This is a real problem for bookshops and customers. Some people come in several times a week read for free and even bring in lunch. Often the magazines and newspapers are left in a state which is no longer fit for sale.

So what can we do?

In my opinion those people are making things worse for the shop and all decent customers, so just kick them!

But after years of "the customer is always right, many people have become so arogant that demanding acceptable behaviour from your customers will definitly kill your shop.

They could take the example that some record stores use, where there is a store copy that is played and customers use to see if they like it. When they bring it up to the register to buy, the clerk retrieves a brand-new copy.

> Selling coffee is the mission. Providing a place to hang out -- whether for a few minutes waiting for a friend or for a longer time -- is something that may, for some shops, be a means to advance that mission. But I don't think its the mission, or even a core service. If it was, they'd be selling that directly.

Really? And this is based on your experience running how many coffee bars?

Just today I was helping a friend with his resume, one who has started a couple of successful bars. The heart of what he had to say was about creating spaces for people to unwind, interact, meet, and just hang out. They were charging for the food and alcohol, but what they were selling was an experience.

Well that might have been true in the 17th century but Starbucks is totally fixated on making the most optimal use of its space - got to keep the cash coming as much as they are in avoiding CGT the tax on it.

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