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Comment by kimlelly | Hacker News Reader

> Snowden made the right call when he fled the U.S.

As if there was 1 person in the World who would have doubted that. It's scary that such titles are still being written.

Oh I am positive that there are millions in this very country who believe that he should have stayed and gone to trial, that his fleeing is cowardly, and that his actions are traitorous.

I have to wonder on what grounds people can think this, when there are examples in seemingly any area of public cause where an individual succumbs to the might of heavyhanded authority of government. Probably those who judge a situation by what they see and read in the media and/or in the headlines, without stopping to really consider the facts (rather than opinions, which is what most news is these days) and make a judgment themselves.

I can't say I'm completely immune from the influence of popular media, but I try.

I assume the grounds from which people think this stems from a naïveté and unsubstantiated belief in one's country's principles. Particularly considering that the United States to many Americans to this day is more an idea than simply a country.

This striking philosophical difference between Americans and other Western nationalities tends to give Americans a trust in their system where other nationalities would have drawn the line.

Because even if Congress and the White House cannot be trusted, surely the Supreme Court and the judicial branch got our backs? If only it was so simple.

Still, I don't mind Americans being keen on the idea they believe the United States is; but they need to realise that the United States is not that idea. And if it ever was, then it is certainly not any more.

Yeah, I came to the conclusion that the USA is more like religion than country. The constitution is it's bible, its schools and malls are it's churches, the president is it's pope, Washington is it's Vatican, its military it's jihadists, the national anthem it's lords prayer, and so on. Americans believe in the USA in a way no other population believes in theirs.

BTW, I make NO moral judgement, its just my own personal observation.

I wish we could get Bible-like fanaticism over the Constitution. That would really, seriously, be the very best thing I could imagine happening to this country.

Really, you think the average American thinks more highly of his country than the average Frenchman? Have you ever spoken to a Frenchman?

There seems to be more questioning of the government though with the ability for people to dissent without being branded as terrorists, communists, etc...

America is so large that it is near impossible to impact the status quo. There is so much blind patriotism and faith in the government that anyone who disagrees is quickly marginalized and branded as unpatriotic. "You don't like it? Leave."

Since the US was formed the French have lived through five republics and a few empires. They know that government is provisional. This probably explains why they are so protective of their culture. There are still people alive today who lived under German rule.

> This striking philosophical difference between Americans and other Western nationalities tends to give Americans a trust in their system where other nationalities would have drawn the line.

Really? So other Western countries would have... revolted? Rioted? Done something? The UK is pretty much a police state and there isn't much going on there. Germany seems to be doing its own intelligence-gathering work and snooping on its citizens, too.

You are right, they would not revolt or riot. But neither do they believe that their system is great, they are just too apathetic to do anything about it, because they are provided with too high a standard of living for them to riot; they have too much to lose.

But they would not expect Snowden to get a fair trial in their own country (if we use the scenario that he was from their country and not the USA), which is what I meant.

You can argue that this apathetic culture is worse than the Americans' naïveté. And to a point I would agree.

Have you ever actually lived in the UK before ? Pretty sure most people wouldn't agree that their standard of living is so high that they wouldn't have something to lose by rioting.

It's more a case that most people don't consider their online activity to be as precious as some others do.

They think this on the grounds that he would have been tried as a civilian whereas Manning was court marshaled. I am surprised Ellsberg didn't mention that distinction. I do not know how the trial would work, though, given its sensitive subject matter. Ellsberg's position at RAND had a similar relationship to the defense establishment as Snowden's, and he was still considered a civilian.

  | that his fleeing is cowardly, and that his
  | actions are traitorous

Ah, the classic, "Why won't you stop moving so that I can kill you," reaction.

I have a friend who has said almost exactly that. When pressed he can't really offer more other than that a trial is how the word will "get out". It's my opinion that if he's arrested he will never be heard from again.

Much more likely is that he gets put in solitary confinement until he is not capable of presenting a cognizant defense.

> Oh I am positive that there are millions in this very country who believe that he should have stayed and gone to trial, that his fleeing is cowardly, and that his actions are traitorous.

Of course. In WW2, when the Japanese were attacking the Philippines, you didn't see General MacArthur cowardly fleeing for Australia, right? Heroes stay and fight no matter what the odds are. He would have never gotten his medal of honor for fleeing to fight on a more favorable battlefield!

"As if there was 1 person in the World who would have doubted that"

I'm afraid you're the one that's out of touch, unfortunately. Just reading the comments below some of these articles (not hn) should make that painfully clear.

So true. My Facebook feed will contain no less than a dozen 2nd amendment related posts at any given point in time, but nary a peep about the 4th.

If you want to see action on this front, someone needs to educate the NRA that metadata provides the government much more information than any gun registration database ever could.

While I think he made the right call, this trope that the US will try to assassinate him/throw him in a secret CIA prison is so baseless. People have said over and over that the information he had was handed over to various org's, so killing him would only be bad. Justice dep't still has a legal obligation to try and get him home, but don't think they're going to be risking more diplomatic flack to get this guy home.

Also, I don't know why people don't think he wouldn't get a fair trial. Manning is military and they do their things how they do them, but it's not like the US civilian courts have a reputation for absolute tyranny. Plus, standing in the spotlight like that.... no way he wouldn't have gotten a fair trial. I agree with the article that he wouldn't get bail now that he try to run (which is consistent with how bail works), but I think he could've gotten bail otherwise, if he had surrendered instead of run. And while he admitted to having released the documents, if he could argue the illegality of the programs shown, then he could actually go through whistleblower protections.

Not saying he should have surrendered, just that this "The US has turned to tyranny" trope is tired and baseless.

Getting a fair trial is really not the issue since he clearly broke the law.

It all hinges on PR. If the government was able to smear him enough that the majority of people considered him a traitor, then they would do their damnedest to make an example out of him. On the other hand, if people came to see Snowden in a positive light they wouldn't dare martyr him. Given the general apathy that we've seen from so many Americans (even Ira Glass from This American Life basically said "meh, what do I have to hide?"), I can't help but to sadly feel he made the right choice.

but don't think they're going to be risking more diplomatic flack to get this guy home.

How can you claim that when this

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/edward-snow...

was absolutely inconceivable only some days ago, so much that the President explicitly claimed:

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=50149843n

This is curiosity, not trying to bring down your point, but:

Is there any article about the plane event that isn't prefaced by "Bolivia accuses that..."? I have yet to see any confirmation about what happened from the other side.

The U.S officially had no comment, last I checked.

Which facts do you not beleive? We're on the internet, we can check the news on other languages, not only what's written in the English speaking media. I have the privilege of knowing a few more European languages but even better we can all use Google translate. Let me summarize the facts:

The plane with president Morales and his delegation wanted to fly back to Bolivia from Moscow. It's a plane that simply has to refuel for a trip like that. During the flight four European countries: Italy, Portugal, France and Spain withdraw the permission to fly over, effectively forcing the plane to ground. Spain admitted independently that "they have been given an information that Snowden is on that plane." The president spent more than 12 hours on Vienna's airport.

What do you question then?

I'm not questioning that Morales had to land in Vienna, I'm questioning the reasons behind it, because I haven't seen countries giving "Snowden was on the plane" as a reason to deny airspace.

4 days ago:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/05/european-states-...

"European states were told Snowden was on Morales plane, says Spain

Spanish foreign minister declines to say where information came from that NSA whistleblower was on Bolivian leader's flight"

Reuters, today:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/8899974/Spain-admits-US-...

"Spain has acknowledged that a US request had led it to delay approving an overflight by Bolivia's president, but said it had given the go-ahead after receiving an assurance from Bolivia that US fugitive Edward Snowden was not on the plane."

Look at where the charges were filed, it was Alexandria, VA. A town where the largest employer is the DOD. The vast majority of potential jurors either work directly or indirectly for the government and have security clearance.

It's no different from what any other prosecutor would do in any other trial (i.e. picking a favourable court/jury), but it obviously has a significant impact on outcome.

How can he get a fair trial when most of it will be a secret trial because all of the evidence is classified?

I think it will be far more likely that they fabricate hidden bank accounts with money traced back to China or Iran or something to discredit him and then make it look like China had him killed.

I don't know about that.

Here, on HN, yes. But the population in general don't care about what the NSA get up to, don't care about Snowden, and seem to also think he is a traitor on a par with the cold war. As long as they believe that the gov are fighting the straw man of "Terror", they are happy bunnies. So, I suspect this article is more for them than the likes of us.

What does "traitor on par with the [C]old [W]ar" mean? Do you know what "on par" means?

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