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Comment by stuartmemo | Hacker News Reader

This comment is everything I don't want to be.

I'm with you.

An article like this shooting to the top of HN is a consequence of the rise in status of programmers. Probably nothing can be done about it, but an article on how to conform is the antithesis of hacker culture.

In what I perceive as "hacker culture", wearing neat and properly-fitted clothes is anything but "conforming".

That's something different. By "conforming" I meant "conforming to the mainstream", which is the type of conforming the OP (and the root comment) is about.

(Edit: I agree that subcultures have their own conformity rules.)

I don't know if you've observed normal people lately, but wearing well-fitted clothes is pretty clearly not "the mainstream".

In terms of cultural values, it clearly is. Hence the connection to "career advancement".

Please don't be personally sarcastic on HN.

Shared cultural values in the US definitely do not include well-fitted clothes, outside of niche markets like fashion or design, in major cities like New York.

Please don't meta-moderate my contributions to this community.

Really, why is that? I don't believe I said anything controversial. I personally haven't met anybody who, given the choice, prefers looking like a disheveled slob.

For one, people who wear sneakers often do it because they are comfortable. To equate them to high school teenagers if they are not personal trainers is quite unfair. You are free to advocate a more professional look, but if you get disrespectful on the way, people are going to hate your stance for it.

I stand by that statement more-so than any of the other ones, and I'm sorry if you found it offensive. Sneakers have no place in a professional environment. There are plenty of comfortable options for professional footwear.

> Sneakers have no place in a professional environment.

Tell that to Billy G, Stevie J, and just about every programmer that works for IBM, Microsoft, Apple, Intel, and Google. I'm guessing you don't really know that many programmers that work at mainly tech companies.

Many tech companies do not have a professional environment.

Isn't a professional simply somebody who is paid wages?

Isn't a professional environment simply the typical environment in which a given class of professionals chooses or prefers to work?

Are there professional garbage truck drivers?

Yes, yes, yes. Many tech companies don't have the kind of environment professionals like to work in, because they foster an environment so casual it borders on 4th of july drunken barbeque.

Why would a company have an environment that its employees didn't like to work in? Or did you mean employees from other companies?

Why would it have that environment? Usually mismanagement, but also the culture that becomes ingrained from the company's inception. The problem is when the culture is so slanted towards certain behaviors that they go a little too far and become problematic.

If you take that point of view, than all of this advice about how to dress in a professional environment is irrelevant to most of us.

Even if you work in an environment which borders on unprofessional, dressing this way has many benefits. People will regularly comment on how good you look. They'll take you more seriously. You'll gain a little more confidence and pride in properly accomplishing a given style. And you can use it for the rest of your life, until the point at which your centuries-old duds go out of style (which probably won't be in our lifetime). Other people in your workplace may notice this and make an effort to clean themselves up a bit, too, which may affect their interpersonal skills and work ethic. No guarantees, but it can't hurt.

Oh, and ladies go crazy over well-fitting clothes, especially suits.

In a professional environment where you're trying to sell/ negotiate, I agree with you. It's a natural reaction to make assumptions about people based on how they dress, and anyway in which you can give yourself an advantage is valuable.

Any other professional environment I disagree. Why? I wear crocs to work. I wish I could go barefoot. What does footwear have to do with software development?

So, here's the deal with tech companies, lax dress codes, and professionalism.

When business came about, there was a general idea that the quality of a person and their business dealings was reflected in the way they presented themselves. This was a big deal back when you had to physically interact with the businessperson. If their appearance was sloppy, cheap, unclean, or otherwise with no care put into it, often the products would reflect the same lack of care.

Fast forward to present-day. Joe Emacs sits in his Herman Miller, his "No, I Will Not Fix Your Computer" t-shirt stained by cheetos and free mountain dew. His sandals expose his grimy, untrimmed, twisted toenails. He smells of BO, either because he forgot to put on deodorant or hasn't showered in days, probably due to "marathon coding sessions". His hair is also greasy and smells.

Joe Emacs likes to shout over his cube to his co-workers, because why should he make the effort to get up? Joe Emacs likes to leave trash all over his cube. Joe Emacs blares youtube clips over speakers instead of headphones, annoying all his co-workers, preventing them from working. Joe Emacs likes to talk loudly about subjects that bother or annoy his co-workers. Joe Emacs is an asshole.

Compare Joe Emacs to Fred Altair. He comes to work in crisply ironed chinos and a dress-shirt or polo. His hair is combed. He smells nice. His brown leather shoes gleam in the fluorescent light. His desk is neat and tidy. He walks over to his co-workers and politely asks questions without interrupting. He uses headphones, and doesn't discuss religion, politics, or other controversial topics in the workplace.

It doesn't matter which you would prefer to be. Joe Emacs is going to annoy his co-workers and make it a shitty place to work. Fred Altair will be appreciated by his co-workers, and make it a much more relaxing place to work.

But it's not about clothes. It's about professional attitude and environment, which is to say, respecting your co-workers and not becoming a burden on others. If you can do that while still wearing Crocs, by all means go ahead.

Just want to say, I love this post. It really shows the idea that presenting yourself professionally is much more than just looking nice. It's about respect for yourself and for others. When I read some of the comments in this thread and picture the writer, I imagine Joe Emacs (brilliant phrase btw) with his worship of anti-conformity and contrarian attitude. Not someone I enjoy working with. Certainly there are exceptions, but in my years of working in tech, especially the startup scene, I've definitely seen this trend and want no part of it.

I don't understand. How does clothing choice have anything to do with respecting your co-workers? I think being judgmental about someone's sense of style is more disrespectful to your co-workers than wearing fitting, popular clothing.

The clothing choices I mentioned are more classic examples of behavioral stereotypes.... I don't encourage being judgmental at all. It's really not what you wear, but how you wear it and how you comport yourself in the workplace. But there are limits.

Barefoot is just not acceptable. it's unhygenic. Nobody wants to smell your feet, and even if your feet aren't smelly, you're at risk of developing a fungal infection, injury, etc. Wear some shoes.

The other aspect to picking a particular style or dress (let's call it "conservative dress") is that it makes people more comfortable. People are weird. Often they get uncomfortable if people around them dress different than they're used to. You see it in tech workers all the time: they say "I'll never wear a tie! Oppression!" or somesuch thing. Ties make them uncomfortable, just like people in shorts, sandals and a t-shirt with a slogan might make other people uncomfortable. Something in the middle would make everyone more comfortable, which makes for a better work environment.

But the way you dress can influence the way you and your co-workers behave. In my experience, dressing more relaxed leads to more relaxed personalities, which has both great and horrible side-effects. People think they can act however they would with their friends, which (for tech types) might be very abrasive to strangers. It may also affect their work, or how they compose themselves in meetings. I can't tell you how often i've heard the causally-dressed guy tell someone to fuck off in a meeting, while the guy in business-casual is much more tactful. These are just some examples.

I have very little "work" experience, but from my limited experience I've noticed the opposite effect, the guy in a suit is way more likely to be a bully. That being said, I can imagine people acting how you say. I think that a company that has employees that act this way is seriously dysfunctional and I have no desire to contribute to that.

"I have very little "work" experience, but from my limited experience I've noticed the opposite effect, the guy in a suit is way more likely to be a bully."

After about 20 years in professional work, I can confirm that the nicer the suit, the bigger the asshole. The hack is to dress in a nice suit as well and then don't back down when the bully bombasts all over you. You'll probably end up with a promotion. Not backing down form a T-shirt position will probably get you laid off.

    > I wear crocs to work.

And I guarantee you people take you less seriously as a result of it. You can say "their loss!" and scoff at the absurdity of it, but that's a coping, rather than fixing, mechanism.

Why would sneakers have nothing to do in a professional environment?

Unless type X of footwear professionally disables you in some sort of way, I think the statement "[X] have no place in a professional environment" is rubbish.

This is non-sense, light-but-vicious conformism.

I'm Sooooo glad I don't work in a "professional" environment. I sometimes think professional is slang for pretentious.

There are plenty of comfortable options for professional footwear.

Please let me know. I've tried for almost 20 years to find a pair of decent work shoes half as comfortable as a pair of knock off $10 sneakers. I try to get by with choosing decent looking sneakers, but it's a lost battle. Mens dress shoes are made for a foot shape that mine obviously isn't.

The most comfortable shoes I've ever worn are Keens, followed closely by Vans, then Merrels.

My local shoe guy has tried in vain for years to find me a pair of nice work shoes. His last best effort was Mephisto, which are awesome shoes and an awesome company, and completely unwearable for me after a few minutes.

Josef Seibel makes great office appropriate comfortable footware for men. Take a look.

>For one, people who wear sneakers often do it because they are comfortable.

As opposed to what? I find Cole Haan shoes extremely comfortable for example. And they even come with Nike Air soles.

As opposed to looking professional even when the attire is uncomfortable or at least not the most preferred.

I personally haven't met anybody who, given the choice, prefers looking like a disheveled slob.

I prefer wearing gym shorts to slacks. If that preference qualifies as "wanting to look like a disheveled slob," then a large fraction of the population wants to look like a disheveled slob.

More generally, I prefer not to worry about things like brands of clothing.

It's fine that others do. I'd agree you didn't say anything controversial or offensive. But, fashion isn't for everyone.

>I prefer wearing gym shorts to slacks. If that preference qualifies as "wanting to look like a disheveled slob," then a large fraction of the population wants to look like a disheveled slob.

I don't think there's any argument about that.

Any man, over 20-22, that wears "gym shorts" casually looks like a disheveled slob.

Well fitting clothes are comfortable too. You don't need to get brand name items either. There's nothing wrong with not caring about fashion - indeed, people shouldn't be judging others negatively just because of fashion. However, why not also look good? It can benefit the social aspect of your life a lot, by giving you some added confidence. So if you're looking to improve that part of your life, dressing well is a good place to start.

> I personally haven't met anybody who, given the choice, prefers looking like a disheveled slob.

Not calling people names, whether or not it's due to their clothing choices, is going to earn you more respect than the clothes you personally like to wear.

Elegant?

Because a t-shirt with cola and burger residue is what characterises a hacker and an independent spirit, right?

I don't see how taking the time to have, say, a nice desk, or car is OK, but nice clothes are somehow beneath us.

> Because a t-shirt with cola and burger residue is what characterises a hacker and an independent spirit, right?

Preferring a t-shirt doesn't mean you don't care about food stains on your clothes.

I wear high quality t-shirts, jeans and sneakers that look, fit and feel great (to me). They aren't fancy, but niceness seems pretty subjective. My wardrobe is nice to me, maybe not to anyone else.

Personally I gauge the niceness of my desk and car by their utility and enjoyability, same with my clothes. There are certain utilitarian requirements for each, it's pretty much about personal opinion after that.

>I wear high quality t-shirts, jeans and sneakers that look, fit and feel great (to me). They aren't fancy, but niceness seems pretty subjective.

Actually it's pretty objective within a culture. Might not be objective in the gravity and T || F = T way, but it's objective in the cultural sense.

To the degree that you get pretty consistent results from studies where subjects are shown photos of people or stuff to judge for "niceness".

That's too bad. I think it's very good advice and mirrors my own experience.

Nobody really cares what you want to be, but thanks for using HN like it's your twitter account.

I care, because it matters to me that there are others who feel the way I do.

Please don't make sarcastic personal comments on HN.

Why?

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