Hacker News Reader

Comment by Alex3917 | Hacker News Reader

The problem also is that you have people who are constantly getting exposed to anti-fungal medications without their knowledge. E.g. almost all supermarket lemons/limes/oranges are coated in anti-fungal cream before being coated with another thin layer of wax, so when you make zest from them (or order a drink with zest at a bar) then you are probably reducing your body's ability to fight off things like this. So much better to avoid things like that entirely I think, as fungal infections are often not possible to cure.

View on HN

There is utterly no epidemiological evidence that eating zest has anything to do with any kind of fungal infection.

Of course, that won't actually stop people from claiming there is.

Have you ever actually heard anyone mention the application of anti-fungals to citrus fruit rinds in the first place? Because I've never even heard of it outside of mycology circles, and there are virtually no Google results despite the fact that the practice is ubiquitous.

How does "There is virtually no evidence that this is even done" translate to "This is a big problem"? At least in my book, lack of evidence doesn't count as evidence.

Actually a Google Scholar search for 'citrus postharvest antifungal treatments' does show that this is in fact the standard operating procedure. E.g. this paper starts out with a summary of the current state of conventional agriculture:

http://ucce.ucdavis.edu/files/datastore/234-1524.pdf

It's just that a more simple Google search like 'citrus antifungal' doesn't turn up anything.

"There is utterly no epidemiological evidence that eating zest has anything to do with any kind of fungal infection."

No, but there is plenty of evidence that fungi develop resistance to anti-fungal drugs. If I really liked zest I might keep eating it, but since I actually don't like it in the first place I don't find that I lose anything by leaving it out of recipes and cocktails.

I certainly wouldn't say that it's definitely harmful, but when you're eating all these fungicides that have never been tested for longterm safety on humans then that's a risk one should be at least cognizant of.

Actually unlike antibiotics, there is limited evidence of rrsidtence to antifungals. Amphotericin and fluconazole have been around forever and still useful.

Almost all fungal (few exceptions) infections are 100 % curable and treatable in most healthy individuals !!

Lethal fungal infections (such as Aspergillous and Mucormycosis - flesh eating fungus) are common in immune-comprimised individuals (Diabetics, HIV+ , Organ Transplant Recipients, etc) and very un-common in healthy individuals.

"Almost all fungal (few exceptions) infections are 100 % curable and treatable in most healthy individuals !!"

I mean some of them are curable, but anti-fungals are extremely toxic since human cells and fungi cells are very similar. And unlike with bacteria you can't just use antibiotics, since antibiotics mostly come from fungi to begin with. Also, you're not going to be young and healthy forever. At some point you are going to reach an age where you are highly vulnerable to fungal infections, unless you've already died from something else.

Well Fungal cells walls have ergosterol which we humans don't and that is a particular target site for many anti-fungals.

In some cases the fungal treatment is longer than usual eg: Nail infection, because it takes very long for the drug to reach the site. The treatment is around 3 months +

In most common opportunist fungal infections a few doses of anti-fungal does cure and treat the infection.

Also most Healthy individuals don't get infected with Fungus in the First Place even if they eat what ever crap with Anti-fungal substances (in your case lemon with pesticides)

Because our body defense is usually good enough to ward off fungal infections in the first place. Actually a very handful of fungal species are able to infect Healthy people.

And the article is a little Sensationalist as the disease is endemic and common to SW USA.

> In some cases the fungal treatment is longer than usual eg: Nail infection, ...

I believe I got that and roughly beat it! It only took a few years!

Doing some rough carpentry, I dropped a 2 x 4 on my left big toe. No big pain. But later it appeared that I had cracked the nail. Later the nail began to crumble -- likely a fungus among us!

Eventually the nail crumbled its way nearly all the way back to the white part.

I got some anti-fungus cream, generic, big tubes, from Wal-Mart. So, I'd put a tablespoon of this cream on the nail, wrap up the toe with a piece of paper towel, secure it with whatever tape was handy, and f'get about it until after a shower, etc. and then repeat the procedure.

More than once the nail grew out again but was infected with the fungus. We're talking years here!

Finally I got lucky and the nail grew out apparently healthy.

Then there was another problem: The inside edge of the nail was a long way from growing out so grew against flesh giving me an ingrown toenail. Okay, been there; done that! So, slathered on some Wal-Mart generic triple anti-biotic cream, wrapped it up, and waited months until the end of the nail grew out past the flesh. Yes, the end of the nail was ugly with blood and dead flesh! Ah, soap and water! But there was no bacterial infection from the ingrown nail, and no fungus infection.

Now the nail is nicely grown out with little or no evidence of crumbling from a fungus infection.

So, I killed the fungus with just topical medicine and not some internal medicine that might damage my liver.

But, given the slow rate of nail growth, a case can take years!

The anti-biotic cream seems to be strong stuff: Once got some on my socks, washed my socks, and too soon saw sewage bubbling up in my backyard. Yup, the anti-biotic cream had sterilized my septic tank! So, flush a box of Rid-X or whatever, and the septic tank has been healthy ever since.

LOL glad you have your toe nail back. The treatment would have been much faster had you taken Oral Anti-Fungal Meds.

I understand your concern but if you read the side effects even Aspirin has a TRUCK LOAD of 'em. But most of the serious side effects are extremely rare.

On a related note people complain about Side effects of Meds all the time (and Rightly so) but continue to live un-healthy lifestyles (smoke, loads of Alcohol, Trans Fat, etc) which is a little Ironic :)

> On a related note people complain about Side effects of Meds all the time (and Rightly so) but continue to live un-healthy lifestyles (smoke, loads of Alcohol, Trans Fat, etc) which is a little Ironic :)

I really hate this argument. Life is not binary. That statement is not ironic.

I might want to be a healthy individual, but I'm not required to go on a raw food vegan or paleo diet in order to do. Griseofulvin or it's friends, however, is designed to cure an infection, and taking it does not require me to quit eating sugars, carbs and alcohols or stop smoking, rock climbing or breaking the speed limit on the highway.

Aren't topicals that are absorbed through the skin also broken down by the liver?

I don't know.

Or maybe after all the topical I used, enough was absorbed that in effect I had internal medication. Or, I used enough topical to kill all the fungus in my shoes, socks, etc. so that the next time the nail grew out there wasn't any fungus. It does appear that there was some infection on other nails on the same foot. I never put topical on those other nails, but they have cleaned up, as they have grown out, along with the nail on the big toe that finally grew out healthy.

For a liver, supposedly one of its main roles is to get rid of molecules it doesn't like to see, possibly including anti-fungus molecules.

> anti-fungals are extremely toxic since human cells and fungi cells are very similar

Anti-fun gals tend to be toxic, not so much because of cell similarity. Ergosterol biosynthesis is not performed by humans.

Come on, do you have any references or sources for any of these claims? That seems a very flimsy inference.

Do you have any more information about that?

I zest the peels often and enjoy a gin and tonic with lime, would buying organic or from a specific producer help avoid it? The cost should be minimal for these items.

http://www.whatsonmyfood.org/pesticide.jsp?pesticide=604

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enilconazole

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiabendazole

At what dosage are those antifungals effective?

It appears that the highest amount of Tiabendazole found is 0.79mg/kg so I would guess on an individual rind it would be roughly 0.1mg if that. Given dosage amounts seem to be about 25mg/kg/day I would guess it would take an obscene amount of it to cause any sort of bodily reaction. Wouldn't this concern be on par with consuming things that contain deadly things but in ppb or ppt quantities?

"Wouldn't this concern be on par with consuming things that contain deadly things but in ppb or ppt quantities?"

It's not going to be enough to be toxic to humans. The issue is whether it's either introducing antifungal resistant fungi into your body, or causing fungi already in your body to become antifungal resistant.

Drinks at a bar would be using unwaxed lemons.

It's possible to buy organic unwaxed lemons, so people who worry about what's put on lemons and sealed in with wax can still enjoy zest.

For this post let's assume that all lemons are sprayed with pesticides and fungicides, and then they're waxed. And that the wax is removed by alcohol, allowing the pesticide and fungicide to come off into the drink.

A slice of lemon in a gin and tonic is going to give you a tiny dose. I'd be interested to see if there's any evidence that the pesticides and fungicides are doing any harm. (Especially in comparison to the alcohol.)

Any authoritative reference on the type of antifungals that are used? Do they inhibit fungi specific to citrus fruits or also fungi that infect humans?

Reply on news.ycombinator.com