Who Makes Below Minimum Wage in the Mechanical Turk Sweatshop?
priceonomics.com
priceonomics.com
Mechanical Turk (and crowdflower and a few other services) are important bridges for this. People can do important labeling and cleaning work for a cost that's affordable enough to be practical. Right now most of the work is translation, address finding or quasi spammy tasks. But the service itself has a lot of potential to do things that impact our lives in the future. Mechanical Turk workers can improve startups by helping with personalization and automation tasks, help with science and defense by labeling images and aid in all kinds of language processing and computer vision tasks that could make things cheaper and better for all of us.
It's good to see human capital being utilized, even if it is ont he cheap. For what it's worth, amazon does recommend that people set the pricing on their mturk tasks so that they come out to something close to minimum wage. Though I'm not sure that things like this are what the minimum wage was designed for. Completing online labeling tasks is a far cry from working in an actual sweat shop. It would be nice if there was some sort of exception for technical piece work. Mechanical Turk isn't nearly popular enough right now, but in the future as machine learning becomes more common there will be a serious demand for these tasks. I hope we can find a way to let people do data preparation work while avoiding virtual dickensian conditions of a kind of data processing industrial revolution.
This is a completely separate discussion than what people need to get by, or what they should be provided. It is far more straightforward to just provide/pay them directly from the government, than pretend that isn't happening and there is no cost by distorting markets and making customers pay anyway, as well as reducing competition.
Seeing exactly what companies do in reaction to not being able to hire based on supply and demand is quite difficult to measure. For example it can hit the poorer people because companies can't economically provide products for them, hence causing the poorer people to have to spend more on alternatives. Sometimes surveys find that minimum wage increases made no difference, but that then turns out to be survivorship bias - you can't survey companies that went out of business or left to go elsewhere.
The real problem is that market distortions are used to sweep under the rug a social policy, and to pretend that it doesn't cost people anything when it certainly does, and the poor/unemployed the most. If in favour of the social policy then just do it directly.
The real reason for contracting is that the paperwork is much simpler. You don't need an HR department. And the guy gets automatically laid off after a few months without the incident reflecting on either you or him, so there's less risk.
There's another side to it where you can hire a "contractor" on an n-month term, but instead of paying the contractor directly you go through a middleman who hires the contractor as an employee and provides (shitty) benefits and takes care of taxes.
The fact they are choosing to do it shows they have no viable alternative, which means things must be pretty bad where they are living
> A survey of workers on Mechanical Turk done by Panos Ipeirotis, an Associate Professor at the Stern School of Business at NYU, found that the majority of American workers are young, have at least some college experience, and have household incomes between $25,000 and $60,000.
It sounds like the majority of workers are supplementing their incomes, not relying on it.
> The rest make under $20 a week by working an hour or two per day. The most commonly cited reasons for using Mechanical Turk are to earn some extra spending money and productively use time that would otherwise be wasted watching television. One academic study that relied on Mechanical Turk workers filling out questionnaires noted that its American participants were “normally distributed in terms of socioeconomic status, with the average participant having completed some college and receiving a financial income between $37,500–49,999 per year.” This does not match up with the perception of exploited sweatshop labor - the poor who must accept low wages due to a lack of alternatives.
I guess it ought to be illegal for people to choose to make productive use of their time.
Next time, please read the article before parroting your ideological commitments.
Of course i'm coming entirely from a labor point of view, and i'll grant my grasp of economics is probably naive to say the least.
If the end goal was to produce some goods or services that are of benefit to people, while looking after employees, the environment and the local community, the world would be a much better place.
Of course, the stock market might not grow so fast, but that's just made up anyway. People struggling to buy food on paltry wages is not made up.
I suggest you try your experiment on sentient creatures that are not motivated by utility. I am unaware of any at this point, however.
Assertion based on facts not found in evidence. Just because they take remote jobs that can be done at their whim whenever they want doesn't mean they can't find a viable alternative. In fact, there aren't many jobs where those qualifications are met.
That is why this is slightly different. It is the micro payment for micro work.
Chillingly spoken like a true, cold-blooded functionary. Are humans mere "capital"? Is their worth decided by being "utilized"? Is that what the meaning of our existence is reduced to? Perhaps our robotic overlords will agree that such a determination fits each and all of us. Tarpaper shacks, dirty water, food scraps and, every now and then, a glance at the Sun when the heat and clouds of pollution part for a short moment.
Either that or our future could be much less deterministic and free-form through the elimination of such de-liberate prognoses. One way or another that viewpoint of humanity is doomed to extinction. I'll keep my fork packed, friend.
What is the incentive to do an online job and set your prices at the lowest possible legal limit? Surely nearly anything else you could do with a computer would be more valuable? I mean, if you get good enough playing computer games you can make more than minimum wage.
At least with transcribing english text you have some advantage by being a native english speaker.
I am a avid gamer, but I gave up forever in going pro, because practice to reach pro level is tiring, VERY tiring...
One pro player lived unoficially with me (actually, he lived somewhere else but hated his roomates, so he hanged around my house instead), he would arrive from university, sit on the computer, and play until 4 in the morning, eat delivery McDonald every day, drop on the floor (yes, the floor, not a bed, or a cushion, or anything like this), sleep, wake up at 7 and go to university (without taking a bath...)
Sometimes he would get too smelly or clearly lacked decent food, then I and other roomates would kick him out back to his house, and let him return about 3 days later.
He is a player I still don't enjoy playing against (Because he wipe the floor with me), but even with all that amount of ridiculous practice, and winning championships, he still do not got sponsors... Now he went to do something else, and play for fun only (and his performance decreased accordingly actually... during his pro years, I would lose 100% of the matches against him, now I only lose about 70% of them, and I am sure I don't improved, since I did not play for 2 years in a row and since my return I had in total about 30 matches, while a pro player could pull 20 practice matches in a day)
It is, in fact, especially convenient for those who buy this human capital to get it on the cheap.
I notice also that you're arguing that this project will allow machine learning to essentially capture this capital and get even more value out of it. Obviously those now selling their skill and knowledge for cheap will not get a cut of that result.
Unfortunately, the service is flooded with $0.02 spam tasks (Register an account and post ad-copy on a specific forum etc). The highest paying single tasks routinely involve translation/transcription of Arabic.
The most I made from a single task was about $2.30 for 10 minutes, part of which was completion of a pre-screening task to demonstrate a certain level of English reading comprehension.
There were some transcriptionist tasks that looked interesting, but the pre-screening task was looking for professional transcriptionist level performance.
Minimum qualifying WPM was like 70, and the acceptable error rate per minute was... zero? One? I'm not that good.
1) no supervision
2) no dependency on any particular employer
3) ability to choose what to work on
4) ability to choose own hours
5) intrinsic trade-off between job compensation and the speed at which the job will be completed
6) no requirement that the worker be doing the task exclusively -- the could be watching TV, or chatting with a friend, or playing a video game
7) No possibility of employer coercion
Here's another scenario: say you were paid to watch ads. Should that be subject to minimum wage laws? Well, clearly not: we're routinely paid $0 for the ads we're subjected to.
Personally I'm in favour of higher prices and less ads and product placement -- but to say that we're not paid to watch ads sounds a little disingenuous (while technically true).
Why isn't there something that makes it super simple for me to take surveys on my phone while I wait somewhere? I'd rather answer some marketing questions for a quarter than play Dots as I wait to meet a friend.
Judging by the going rates on mturk, you aren't going to make a quarter for a simple survey, more like a few cents. In my experience, a task that pays $0.25 likely to take 10+ minutes and require some actual effort.
Not that these are bad things necessarily. I've seen some pattern-recognition type tasks on mturk in the $0.25 range that I'd call fun.
Also, in the case of actual surveys I wonder how the value of a regular survey taker's responses would change over time?
Would it go up by creating an ever more specific profile of yourself or go down as the collector already has data for your demographic?
Are the surveys even necessary? Could someone simply create an open market for personal data?
Just put some subset of your current snapshot up for bid and collect small passive income from accesses to it cutting out the middlemen who currently collect and market this data via their "free" web services.
Fascinating possibilities, imo.
It should also be possible to write something to check a bunch of bitcoin faucet sites and present tasks as they come available (though I suspect that's less than honest work, heh). Many of those have timers, which are easy to predict, and video watching can be put in the background so you can do things in parallel.
What concerns me more is how all these systems are difficult to use and built for humans to complete tasks. The next revolution should be letting programmers use AIs.
Because the only thing stopping them from using AI is that they aren't allowed to?
Last I checked, MTurk disallowed non-human workers, and that's holding back a lot of potential progress, IMNSHO.
Found it the other day via Steve Blank's amazing list of startup tools/resources:
Next year the big scam is going to be everyone only works 29 hours. Because at the 30th hour the corporation has to contribute towards health care.
The problem is that for some jobs that is almost impossible (for example, Call Center... you need someone that is not retarded, not blind, not deaf, not quadriplegic, leaving you with paraplegics, but paraplegics, specially those willing to venture shit sidewalks, are nowhere near 5% of the population).
So we have lots of companies with 999 employees. When someone want to expand their company, they instead create a new company (with more 999 employees), and have them both work as contractor to something else or something like that.
In fact by reducing everyone to 29-hours, they could in theory claim to hire MORE people, while carefully saying nothing about them making a living wage or the state paying for their insurance vs the employer.
That PDF is actually depressing when you look at the graphs, uninsurance was only reduced by a little over a third for all that change in policy.
From the text:
"To capture potential changes in hours worked in response to health reform, we also examined trends in full-time and part-time work over time."
> uninsurance was only reduced by a little over a third for all that change in policy.
this reduction occurred on top of a trend of great increases in uninsurance nationwide at the same time:
> Between 2008 and 2010, Massachusetts, the four comparison states, and the rest of the nation all experienced sharp drops in employer-sponsored coverage, reflecting the impacts of the recession. However, it would appear that health reform mitigated the effects of the recession in Massachusetts on employer-sponsored coverage to some extent, as the level of employer- sponsored coverage in Massachusetts, which was below that of the four comparison states prior to health reform, moved above the level in those states after health reform and has remained at a higher level.
> Although there are differences in the details, with penalties for firms that fail to comply higher under the ACA than in Massachusetts but fewer firms likely to be affected nationally, the broad similarities between the ACA and Massachusetts’ reform suggest that we can expect to see patterns in the response by employers under the ACA similar to those observed under health reform in Massachusetts.
As the article mentions, the tasks are supposed to be those which cannot be easily automated and require the attention of a human.
If you start writing bots to do the tasks, you're now the mostly-blind leading the blind.
Once the market gets flooded with bots, the buyers will work out what's going on and start to lower their offers to cover the risk of getting a bot transcription. Then the real humans leave.
And of course, if a task can be fully automated then amazon would prefer to integrate it into their cloud offering and take all of the profit themselves.
>And of course, if a task can be fully automated then amazon would prefer to integrate it into their cloud offering and take all of the profit themselves.
And that's what Amazon should do if they could.
You would also get people doing some work themselves to build reputation up and then swapping in a bot.
It would be quite interesting to build a dedicated market for bots. Just let people upload scripts with a documented input/output format and then pay the developer a royalty each time it is run.
The point of MT is that it's a market for jobs that cannot be easily automated. If someone can automate the task then so be it, it doesn't matter.
The point of MT is not a market place for "tasks that can only be done by humans", it's a market place for "tasks that can't be automated easily, therefore everyone and everything should have an opportunity to complete the task by any means what-so-ever. if you can only complete tasks on drugs then so be it. if you can only complete tasks by writing a bot so be it.". The seller just wants task to be completed cheaply.
Once that guarantee goes away you affect the value of all transactions within the market. What is commonly known as a "Lemon market effect".