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Comment by joel_perl_prog | Hacker News Reader

I'm a marathoner and ultramarathoner. My first running event was a half-marathon in 2007. From there, one thing lead to another over the years, and now the most recent event I ran was a 50 mile ultra.

What I can say from my personal subjective experience is that I feel good all the time. No aches and pains. No trouble sleeping. Mentally quick and sharp. Never sick. The list goes on.

I recommend running to anyone. Not necessarily becoming a marathoner, unless you enjoy the challenge, the sport and the subculture of it, but running in general, for fitness.

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To me, long-distance running also has the effects you describe, but you and I are lucky to have bodies that allow it. Cycling is great in similar ways but can be a lot easier on the knees, for example.

I've found other higher level psychological effects of exercise, too. For example, having a group that meets for a run every week at a given time and goes out no matter what the conditions (snow, rainstorm, heat wave, tornado warning...) was incredibly inspiring and liberating. Exploring the neighborhoods of my city on different routes made me happy in ways that a treadmill never could. And hard self-defense workouts always gave me the best stress relief and a sense of perspective (especially when we took a moment to meditate, too).

I recommend running to anyone.

Unless you have severe joint problems, in which I case I think non-impact activities like swimming and flat cycling are a better alternatives.

This, definitely. Of course the said sports are a good addition to us runners too. I personally find it actually even more rewarding to do the longer aerobic workouts by swimming or cycling than always running. Mixing things up is hardly ever a bad thing.

I prefer to run on thick grass, mountain bike trails, tracks, etc. for this reason. I don't have joint problems yet, but every time I run on pavement I can feel how hard it is on the body.

Uphills runs and stair-training are also significantly lower impact on the knees and hips, though both can be harder on certain muscle groups like hamstrings.

I recommend to everyone to find some winding, hilly mountain bike trails and go run on them. I could never get into running outside the context of team sports until I tried this; it's an absolute blast, especially if you have a background in sprinting.

But when you do, please leave the earphones at home. And don't jump in a random direction like a deer when you hear someone behind you with squealing brakes. Us MTB'ers will appreciate it.

Can anyone actually point me to a study that provides significant evidence for this? As a non-specialist with quite severe meniscal damage from an old rugby injury, swimming has often been suggested to me, but I found it the very most painful and upsetting activity of all. Whereas running (in Fivefingers, for the last four years) has more or less brought my knees back to normal.

I'm not challenging that for some value of "severe" this is true, and I'm sceptical that my own experience represents anything useful at all for anyone else. But my question is: is there actual clinical evidence that this is the case, or is this actually just an old wives' tale?

There are plenty of things online that suggest the opposite[1] - but can anyone who actually knows what they are talking about chime in with the state of the art?

[1]: http://www.runnersworld.com/injury-treatment/joint-myth?page...

This isn't exactly what you're asking about (I think you're challenging swimming as a go-to activity for someone too injured or otherwise unable to run) -- but there is a related myth, which is that running ruins your knees. Studies have shown evidence the opposite is true: that running strengthens and thickens bone. I mention this by way of saying that, with the amount of myth and half-truth out there as relates to running and the impact on the body, I'm never surprised by what people believe anymore.

I was always under the understanding that running (potentially) ruins your knees by damaging your cartilage - bone thickness or density isn't the issue. That's why swimming is often recommended because there is no impact on your cartilage.

I'm running cartilage mapping MRI sequences on knees today - and while its hardly scientific, I would have to agree. The big runners I scan have some pretty munted hips and knees. So very messed up that I can't find any decent cartilage to use as baseline normal for the scanner.

This is precisely why I'm a cyclist and not a runner. I like to think that I gave running a sincere effort, but the little aches and pains just bothered me constantly. Maybe I had poor form, or maybe my body just isn't built for it, I don't know. By contrast, after tens of thousands of kms on the bike, all I ever get are sore muscles after a hard effort.

I recall that the research I've seen on this in the past showed reduced bone density etc. only in serious endurance runners (e.g. multiple marathons, ultra-marathon) and indicated improvements in your "average" runner.

Bone density is definitely an issue, especially for women.

"A study at Boston University School of Medicine looked at the continuous impact of the foot with the ground and the commonly accepted belief that running causes degeneration of the knee and can lead to all sorts of arthritic conditions.

Said lead researcher and epidemiologist David Felson of BU: “We know from many long-term studies that running doesn’t appear to cause much damage to the knees. When we look at people with knee arthritis, we don’t find much of a previous history of running, and when we look at runners and follow them over time, we don’t find that their risk of developing osteoarthritis is any more than expected.” Felson added that recreational running doesn't increase the risk of arthritis."

Quoted from: http://www.mizunousa.com/running/blog/article/the-planet-wav...

Running is vary dependent on age, stride, body size and style. For example a tall and slightly over weight runner with a poor stride has far more impact stress than shorter, thinner, runners with a more efficient stride. Add to that the importance of not running every day to tive the body time to heal and you end up with wide range of issues.

I don't have the study, but I do have my own experience. About 5 years ago I was lucky to survive being hit by the propellor of a speedboat. I was struck across the sacrum, crushing nerves and fracturing both the sacrum and tailbones, as well as a deal of laceration for good measure. There is always a pressure, stiffness and dull spinal ache and occasional acute pain - though fortunately not too often for the latter.

Anyway, I find now that if I do any duration of impact-based activity that I will pay for it; I feel each impact in my spine, though that is bearable for a while, but the next day my lower spine and sacral area will be stiff and sore. Whereas when I swim there is neither immediate nor consequential pain relating to the injury.

It's lucky that I'm a lazy bastard and didn't intend on running anyway :p

Not an expert, but a confusing aspect is open chain vs closed chain exercises.

Open chain exercises leave the foot or hand free to move (like swimming) and because of the lack of support they can actually exacerbate injuries. Instead of putting a joint under compression they put it under tensive strain.

Closed chain exercises are the opposite, the hand or foot is rooted in place (pushups, running, squats, etc) and because of this they add stability through the compression, BUT because of the compression they can also exacerbate injuries (especially because closed chain exercises are often weighted or involve repeated impact).

In the end, like most things, there is no one size fits all. In some situations closed chain is better, other open chain is better. For the average person it doesn't matter as much as most people think. If you're injured consult an expert for exercise to do, if you don't want to do that avoid exercises that cause joint pain.

Most of the studies are injury-specific and not in 100% agreement.

Humans seem to know how to run naturally. Run down the hallway in your house with no shoes on and your technique is likely very good. Strap on a pair of nice, thick, impact absorbing running shows and your technique often goes out the window.

The problem with most running shoes is that they permit you to run terribly without (immediate) pain. They allow you to land with significant pressure on your heel or back half of your foot without really noticing. The flex in your foot and elasticity of your calf muscle help significantly in absorbing the energy of your foot striking the ground (and ideally returns some of it).

Try this test: Without shoes, bounce up and down on your toes. Now try again on your heels. Ouch! And yet this is how many people run without noticing. Of course significant knee/ankle pain comes at some point.

I'd recommend to anyone who experiences knee/ankle pain from running to try running without shoes for a very short distance, take note of your technique, and then replicate that with shoes on (or buy some very thin soled running shoes like those five-fingered variety). Your calf muscles will likely hurt like hell for the first few runs (because you weren't using them before), but they will soon adjust.

Like you, running has changed my life. I started on a whim last year and haven't looked back even though I've been hit with a few minor injuries that have been frustrating.

If you've always been curious but never found you could handle running, then do yourself a favour and check out C25K and the Robert Ullrey podcasts (http://www.c25k.com/). They're a great way to ease into running by giving you progressively increasing difficulty. Best of all they're free and I don't know anyone who's stuck with it and hasn't been able to run a 5k by the end of the 9 weeks.

I've solved many a startup challenge during my longer runs, solved bugs during the meditative bliss and felt a huge boost in my self confidence. Perhaps best of all, you'll also get better in the sack, but don't take my word for it : http://www.canada.com/story.html?id=2dc6f60b-11a7-421f-9ab2-...

I started speed walking about one year ago. I finished my first 10k this jan. I am training for my half-marathon at the end of this year and last week I was able to run three days in a row, which was unthinkable about a year ago, I am not overweight, but speed walking or light jogging used to cause me a hell of a lot of pain and it used to take me a lot of time to recover, sometime more than one week from light jogging.

I do weight training too, but running is a totally different feeling, before I used to force myself to go for runs but now it takes a lot to stop me to go for a run. Its hard to explain, its like I am addicted to it, even though its still painful, but I am recovering much much faster.

I too recommend everyone to give running a try, if you can through the initial hurdle, I don't think you will ever regret it.

Just today, I also finished reading "born to run", while I understand that there are exaggerations in the story to make it more interesting for the readers, and science of "born to run" is still 'up there' and perhaps debatable depending on who you ask, its still one of the best book I have read. Highly recommended to read.

> I am not overweight, but speed walking or light jogging used to cause me a hell of a lot of pain

If you're talking foot/leg pain, see a podiatrist. Foot problems are very common, and you may be able to get a lot of relief with simple orthotics.

It used to be foot pain mainly, but now its not anywhere nearly as bad as it used to be. I think it was mostly due to not using my legs for anything more than a brisk walk for more than a decade.

Now my pains are gluteus and calf related, but I think they are mainly because I have been pushing myself pretty hard. Gotta slow down a bit and give myself more time to recover.

I'd recommend seeing a podiatrist anyway[1].

I've known about my alignment issues for years - mega tight hamstrings and weak gluteals so I got my first pair of (corrective) running shoes from a local, reputable, running shop[2] after a gait analysis. I couldn't run further than 3 miles before the pain in my knee became too much.

The shop then referred me to a podiatrist and switched my corrective shoes for a neutral pair, with insoles from the podiatrist. Since then I've had no problems and have run a half-marathon and 10k.

[1] Not that I'm an especially experienced runner but I've known about my alignment issues for years and, with running in particular, really notice the difference the right correction makes.

[2] http://www.mymoti.com/

I will see if there is any good podiatrist where I live (I highly doubt), but thanks for your suggestion, I appreciate it.

My subjective experience is a little different.

I never did marathons, but I consistently ran 4miles a day ~7:30min/mile pace for 2 years rarely missing a day.

Never got sick and definitely had no trouble sleeping, but I would get knee pain, leg pain and foot pain randomly that wouldn't go away. Mentally things seemed good, but I did notice being more tired in general and unless you run early in the morning it does take up a decent amount of time.

I had little issues like that, as well. Prior to 2010, I hadn't ever run a full marathon because I couldn't train enough. It hurt too much, basically. I was never injured, but just persistent pain and little issues while running.

So, as you're probably sick to death of hearing about, I switched to flat shoes. Mizuno Wave Universe 3, specifically, which is a racing flat made for 1,000 to I'd say 5,000 meter racing.

Changed everything. Changed my running form, I should say, but "everything" fell in line right behind that. All those issues melted away and have, to this day, never recurred, and now I'm able to run as much as I want, train as hard as I want, and so forth, with no pain. It's amazing really. It's personal success stories like this which have made it such a trend. For good reason, in my case. For me, there's no going back, it's not even a question.

I feel like I have those exact pains, but I'm not sure about racing flats.. I usually run 5+ miles (not racing) and flats are more for shorter distances (and racing).

What shoes do you wear for marathon training?

p.s. Are those exact flats still purchasable anywhere? Can't find them online (size 11').

I wore the racing flats for all road runs, including marathons, for years. Now I wear NB Minimus for both roads and trails. But the principle is the same. It's flat, flexible, light shoe.

The racing flats I mentioned are designed for racing, definitely. But the idea is that you wear them for all road runs, fast or slow, as a means to changing your running form.

You can probably get Wave Universe on Amazon.

Thanks, I'll take a look at the NB Minimus this weekend from my local runner's shop. It looks like Vibram 5 fingers minus the toes.

All the anecdotes I've heard have been in the direction of increased susceptibility to colds around and after a marathon event. Maybe if you don't spend time around people when so weakened you could avoid sickness.

Have you considered that you may just be lucky in not falling ill lately? I've had several >1yr stretches without illness and have never done endurance exercise (max was a single half marathon).

I think you're on the wrong track. It's been over 6 years since I've been sick. I also eat really well. Too much stress compromises the immune system, sure. Of course. And for many people, running a marathon constitutes that threshold of too much stress. I haven't felt that. Perhaps doing a 100-mile mountain race would, though...

I used to be an avid runner in high school and enjoyed the same benefits as you describe, until junior and senior year when I developed a dull aching pain in my lower legs whenever I ran. I began taking a lot of OTC anti-inflammatories to counter it, which worked for a while.

After seeing a few doctors, it was eventually diagnosed as chronic compartment syndrome. I've been debating whether to go forward with the surgical cure. It's a tough decision, because the condition doesn't present itself outside of long-distance running, and the surgery is rather invasive.

I seriously miss running. For those of you who can run, I strongly recommend it. It can be an immensely enjoyable way to stay in shape.

Sorry to hear about that.

Anything is possible in life. Something could happen to me where I can't run anymore. In which case, I will likely take up cycling.

That said, someone who is basically my running mentor right now has has been running marathons for 30 years (he's 58 years old), and, as an example, was 11th place last year in a marathon that had several hundred of runners. No sign of slowing down. The simple fact is, this is the running future I hope for. (And there are a lot of examples like him!)

I like running but regularity seems to be the biggest hurdle. Do you think one has to push oneself to improve running or that improvement part takes care of itself as one maintains regularity.]?

A little of both. If you maintain a certain number of miles per week, you will become stronger. If you actually work out, somewhere in among those weekly miles, you will become a lot stronger. "Work out" means some type of running workout. That could be track work, or that could mean simply running a bit faster than your normal, comfortable distance pace, such as a tempo workout or a threshold run.

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