Comment by fnordfnordfnord | Hacker News Reader

Comment by fnordfnordfnord | Hacker News Reader

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fnordfnordfnord

>It's not about the _People_ of USA or Europe. So let's not become hostile against each other.

It is about the people. We call this a "democracy" (I know, it's a republic), yet as a whole we fail to engage our government meaningfully. That makes it the peoples' fault.

We tolerate this crap in the US because as a whole we suffer no visible consequence from it. Most US citizens remain blissfully unaware. Many of those who are aware don't care because it doesn't affect them in any way they can measure, and/or because they think it makes them safer. If we as a whole suffer in some measurable way, especially of those of us who are wealthy enough to travel are rudely made aware of our own rudeness and inconsideration for others, maybe then more of us will actively oppose this crap.

I wouldn't see the revocation of visa-less travel for US citizens in Europe as hostility, or as an unreasonable response to US gov't aggression in the form of our unilaterally spying on everyone.

> We call this a "democracy"

The German Democratic Republic called itself a democracy. Its president Walter Ulbricht at one occasion even said "It must look like democracy, but we must keep control in our hands".

We also merely call outselves a democracy, but in prectice we arent one. The game, the rules of which we didnt write, cant change and still have to abide by, is engineered to, like the GDR, merely give the people a semblance of democracy to keep em busy and calm. We wouldnt go voting for nothing, so it has to be a democracy, otherwise we wouldnt do it, right? Right. In practice, it is not a democracy, but a prisoners dilemma on a country level. In pure theory, we could win the game but only if we achieved levels of organisation and cooperation which in practice are near impossible to achieve. And in this game, we woud actualy play _against_ our politicians, not with them.

I wouldn't see the revocation of visa-less travel for US citizens in Europe as hostility

When Austria elected a neofascist Prime Minister (Jörg Haider), do you think it would have been justified to expel Austria from Schengen and the U.S. visa-waiver program? Do you think doing so would have been seen as a hostile move? After all, Austria is a democracy, so why not sanction the Austrian people for their decisions?

Did Haider violate the human rights of everyone on the planet, like the US has done?

No.

Next straw man ..

Devil's advocate: is it truly such a great inconvenience for foreigners what we do? Is it a greater inconvenience than what their own countries do?

> It is about the people. We call this a "democracy".

What I meant to say is this:

It's not that Americans hate Europeans or vice versa or that Muslims hate Americans or Muslims hate Europeans. We are human beings that share the pains of this existance. We _all_ want to live together in peace - all of us.

Now, when you are part of those that _know_ more (better and fully transparent media available, skill of critical thinking acquired in school), it means that you, as an individual, have more _responsibility_ to change things for the better.

And I believe this is the case with HN readers (the majority of the general public in the US is probably not part of this priviledged group). So go out and inform your peers about what they can do to advance democracy on this planet.

>It's not that Americans hate Europeans or vice versa or that Muslims hate Americans or Muslims hate Europeans. We are human beings that share the pains of this existance. We _all_ want to live together in peace - all of us.

I was born in the US. I've lived in North America, Europe, and Asia. I agree absolutely.

>Now, when you are part of those that _know_ more (better and fully transparent media available, skill of critical thinking acquired in school), it means that you, as an individual, have more _responsibility_ to change things for the better.

IMO, my generation has grown up with and grown accustomed to a kind of powerlessness with respect to gov't policy. Demographics heavily favor the Baby Boomer generation in most parts of the country. The psychology of living for twenty years in a "democracy" where gov't policy has to be approved by our parents, or else it will fail, seems to have produced a lot of apathetic people in my cohort. That's my excuse anyway. Nevertheless, without some meaningful feedback concerning our gov't's, or some galvanizing event, I don't see much chance for progress on this front.

That's quite a walk back from Americans are no longer welcome in Europe.

I don't understand your comment. I'm an American. What I said is that I wish some country(ies) would ban Americans from unrestricted travel. What I wish is that Americans become conscious of the behavior of our government both at home and abroad. Without some corrective feedback, I doubt we'll do anything other than maintain our collective ignorance/apathy.

> We _all_ want to live together in peace - all of us.

Americans want to live in peace, but we want to be in charge, and we don't like the idea of other countries telling us we can't do things. Even cooperating with other countries is perceived as a sign of weakness, and capitulating to other countries telling us that we can't do something we were planning on doing would be political suicide. If you want to get the U.S. electorate solidly behind a policy they were otherwise indifferent about, tell them France is opposed to us doing it...

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