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Comment by jneal | Hacker News Reader

Totally what I was thinking. I feel like there should be huge protests about the NSA situation right now in the US but it's like no one cares, let's just move on with our daily lives and forget that everything we say and do is being listened to and watched.

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This indifference of the "average Joe" is a major trait of totalitarianism.

I never thought I would say this, and I'm actually afraid of saying it out loud because it sounds like hyperbole. But the way I see it, the USA is becoming a totalitarian state. It won't look like any previous totalitarian regime, but many of the hallmarks are there.

Even if you exaggerate the known NSA spying by one or two orders of a magnitude, the US is nowhere near becoming a totalitarian state.

the fact is that all the elements are there to make it into one.　A huge government, a large military force, constant spying, a major disrespect for basic constitutional rights, and now it's just about how fast it slides.

Here are some examples of the "hallmarks of totalitarianism" I see in the United States. Read it and tell me that this is nowhere near totalitarianism. Tell me: what exactly is missing, and how much?

Indiscriminate spying and privacy violation. Selective execution of citizens with no trial or oversight. Secret courts. Gag orders for oversight initiatives. World record in incarceration. Lifetime prison sentences for non-violent offenses. Indefinite, extrajudicial detention of prisoners. Torture. The use of plea bargains to persuade a guilty plea. Use of paramilitary forces (SWAT teams) to apprehend non-violent suspects. Asset freezes, with the consequence of rendering a fair trial impossible. Systematic persecution of whistleblowers, even those who follow the "chain of command". Harsh limits on legal protests ("free speech zones"). Persecution of investigative journalists. Overtly propagandic statements in the news media (referring to, for instance, CNN's very particular use of language in the Snowden case).

I notice you list persecution of investigative journalists. What case were you thinking about?

Barrett Brown is the first name that comes to mind. Julian Assange is arguably in the same camp, at least partially. There has also been a sentiment that Glenn Greenwald should be prosecuted for his role in the Snowden case, albit not by government officials.

The US does not systematically persecute investigative journalists, at least not yet. But the sentiment is there, and there are cases that have crossed the line.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrett_Brown

http://falkvinge.net/2013/06/30/with-journalism-persecuted-t...

I think it is a stretch calling him a journalist. I would consider him an activist.

Maybe. But the sentiment is there. This is a slippery slope, and the US is on its way down.

Newsflash: Journalism has evolved. Technology changes things. There is more journalism done today by "activists" and "bloggers" than the mainstream media. You can tell just by watching the mainstream media and checking where they get a lot of their "scoops" from. The blogosphere is the new AP. It is now economically feasible to publish the entirety of recently public primary documents.

There is an expectation of objectivity in journalism. I think being an activist makes it more difficult for readers to trust your objectivity. I'm not taking anything away from contributions from activists, they are often on the front lines, but that doesn't mean they are journalists.

Such an expectation is grossly misplaced. Anyone who has ever watched the sausage being made will attest to that. It probably hasn't been objective since Cronkite and Edward R. Murrow, and these days only the journalists in the field, far from the newsroom are able to exercise the free will to be objective. People used to get into the news because they want to tell the truth, or that's the romantic story I've been told. However, I have rarely met anyone that went into journalism that was any more objective than activists and bloggers.

Okay, but I still don't think it is crazy to expect some level of objectivity in journalism. I suppose I'm thinking of news not editorials or opinion.

I think it would be nice to require color coding of the news by a fact-checking editor. Basically, anything that is a confirmed fact is highlighted in green. Anything considered fact, but hasn't been confirmed is highlighted yellow. And anything that is opinion or has no basis in reality is red. With that, just let users toggle things on and off in the article.

I'm not sure "persecution" is the right word for this, but the DOJ unilaterally seized phone records for several Associated Press journalists directly from the telephone company without notifying the AP first.

Needless to say, this is a gross abuse of power; the AP couldn't even challenge the seizure in court because they executed the seizure secretly. It's particularly frightening because it dissuades anyone, particularly government officials potentially privy to corrupt programs & practices, from anonymously talking to journalists.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/20/business/media/head-of-the...

EDIT: here's a Wikipedia article on the topic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Department_of_Justice_inve...

>Even if you exaggerate the known Gestapo spying by one or two orders of a magnitude, Germany is nowhere near becoming a totalitarian state

Everyone believes this before and while it is actually happening. The US already has literally all required elements. All that is missing is scale.

You are severely misquoting me, to the point of outright lying.

I don't believe it is useful to level accusations on a society based on such simplistic hand waving.

The details are important. The scale is important. On this very small scale there is significant resistance, what would you expect when the scale widens?

In a democracy, dissent is usually oscillatory. It will rise as public opinion takes a for all practical purposes random walk in some direction, and the people in power, who are necessarily few, develop into another direction. Then there's a bang, be it an election, an accident, a scandal, or something like Fukushima prompting the German exit from nuclear power, and "dissent" is incorporated into power, lowering the amplitude of discontent.

I'm misquoting you? I copied your line exactly... You can look right above and see it there unless you've edited it.

People never care until they are hungry. Empty stomaches spark revolutions. Vast majority of Americans still have jobs.

"Every society is only three meals away from revolution."

Depending on your definitions of "huge" and "no one", here ya go: http://www.reddit.com/r/restorethefourth/

At the time of this comment, r/restorethefourth has 19,511 subscribers. The US has a population of approximately 319 million (WolframAlpha estimate).

We are the 0.00612 percent!

> I feel like there should be huge protests about the NSA situation right now in the US

Weren't you all going to protest on july 4th? Tomorrow?

http://www.restorethefourth.net

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