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Comment by dclowd9901 | Hacker News Reader

I wouldn't care so much about this, except that I am often essentially required to give my data to Ubisoft (and other third party publishers) in order to buy/play their games. EA, you're no better.

Why are all these companies adamant about trying to bootstrap their own services. It's maddening, and it only causes things like this to happen. Steam exists, and it's amazing. Stop trying to do better -- you won't.

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Everything else being equal, Steam may well end up being similarly hacked in the future. The big difference with them is that they use 2FA, so even if your hashed password were stolen and cracked, they still would not be able to access your account.

Edit: I just went through Ubi's password change process, they also restrict password lengths to 8 to 16 characters. Annoys the heck out of me when companies do this.

Is there even any reasonable excuse for limiting the length of passwords to something less than hundreds of characters?

No.

A potential common excuse may be, "No one will remember a secure password in excess of 16 characters, we are trying to minimize support volume", but this is not a "reasonable" excuse.

Yes. It's a DoS vector. The question is, what is a reasonable limit - and 16 characters fails horribly in that section.

Right, as the OP said, there is no reasonable excuse to limit character intake to less than multiple hundreds. I agree that some limit is sensible just to ensure someone doesn't insert War and Peace (or base64-encoded binaries or whatever) as their password.

I was using War and Peace -- now I have to go change my passwords. Thanks!

...a dependence of which we are not conscious.2

None that wouldn't be better handled with a warning of "excessive password complexity, we're not sure you'll remember this". Even truncating all password entries (create/change and auth) and simply taking the used subset would be better than blocking me from using my intended password.

Hmmm... if your password was password30jf0sd09jga09ja0i9sdfasi09djf0-sdj9faspiodjf and they only used the first 8 characters, you'd think you had a strong password, but would really have a very weak password. Hashing then truncating as discussed above would be much safer.

Really no reason to truncate after hashing. The output size of any cryptographic hash function should be more than small enough to send down the wire and hash again properly.

Really though, just reject passwords over a few KB. Nobody will ever notice that limit except for people trying to fuck with you.

The only reasonable restriction is in overall POST body length. I recall an exploit once on node.js where unreasonably large POST requests could DDOS a server with minimal effort.

Well, that and the server having to hash a huge password.

There's no reason to limit the length of passwords whatsoever, except perhaps to be sure you're not trying to hash 20mb of text.

You could really support an arbitrary password size by locally hashing the password to a length at least as long as the one you store in the database to preserve entropy, then send the fixed length hash as the user's "password", and hash it again on the server using something slower, like PBKDF2 with a few thousand rounds.

How do you think hashing functions work?

At least on the web, hashing isn't usually done locally (ie, in Javascript).

this doesn't add extra security - the first hash becomes a substitute password. A cracker could modify their steam account to take said hash as input and sent it directly over the wire.

It doesn't remove any security, either. If you perform a hash on the server that sends an arbitrary input size to a fixed number of bits, the attacker needs only to try O(2^n) different inputs where n is the number of bits of that hash. By using a hash with at least n bits as a substitute password, there's no less security. It does mitigate the DoS vector, however.

no it doesn't remove any security, but why implement a feature that doesn't add anything?

It does add something: users can use any password they want. Any unicode string. You just UTF-8 encode then locally hash into a constant size. This alleviates the issue mentioned in the grandparent that supporting arbitrary length passwords introduces a DoS vector, especially when a slow hash is used on the server.

arbitrary length passwords simply aren't necessary though, and are unlikely to be used - if you were to cap passwords at, say, 128 characters, who would run into that limit?

I'm not arguing that if this functionality were already present in an app that you should remove it; however if it's not there already there's very little value it could add that would justify any development time. That's just my opinion though.

I won't say 20MB passwords wouldn't pose any practical problems, but the hashing itself isn't really an issue. A simple bcrypt test on my laptop (w/work factor 12) gave me these numbers:

1KB: 0.279 secs

1MB: 0.277

10MB: 0.293

100MB: 0.473

1000MB: 2.169

Getting the 1GB string allocated in Python locked my system up for longer than the 20 loops over bcrypt did. :)

I should probably find a machine with a little more RAM to test 10GB...

The primary problem here would be a DoS attack against a web server that accepted that much data in a submission form.

edit: also, merely saying "bcrypt" isn't quite sufficient; we'd have to know what work factor you were testing with. bcrypt with a work factor of 2 is vastly different in performance from bcrypt with a work factor of 12.

> we'd have to know what work factor you were testing with

Parentheses are not made to be ignored.

But I don't think it matters, which is why it was a parenthetical. The point is the relative differences between different sized strings, not the absolute timings.

Whoops, sorry -- dunno how I missed that.

Isn't the password length check done locally on the machine (with javascript or similar)? If so, an attacker could easily ignore that check and send as much data as he want.

The check on that should (and, AFAIK, is) done server-side, with the server closing the connection after a certain amount of data or time.

Doesn't most of bcrypt's work come from rehashing its output? So it only has to touch the 1GB input once, right?

Edit: after reading https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bcrypt#Algorithm, it looks like bcryt's make-work loop does refer to the key in each iteration. I can't tell on a cursory reading whether access to the original key can be memoized, though hashing the large input once before passing it into bcrypt would have the same effect.

Purely in the spirit of "because I can", I fired up a 244GB EC2 instance:

1MB -- 0.310421895981 seconds

10MB -- 0.317299044132

100MB -- 0.409169948101

1GB -- 1.3299703002

10GB -- 10.8254830956

100GB -- 133.936514747

I noticed during the 100GB loop that the process oscillated between 100GB and 200GB, making me suspect that the 100GB string is actually being copied somewhere, which is inefficient and surely has a significant effect on the timings at larger string sizes. As such, I didn't go for a 200GB string.

And just 'cause most of us don't see 200GB python processes every day:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/14571816/python%20200gb....

now enter the first 72 characters of that password in the bcrypt verification function and it'll still say it's correct. bcrypt is a valid technical reason to limit passwords to 72 characters.

Only the support issue, but then I'd have thought that people using really long passwords as normally the ones who'll make an effort to remember / store them. They mention "Encrypted passwords", which would vary the amount of storage required in their database and also make the passwords retrievable if the attacker had gained access to the key / algorithm etc...

I'd had preferred if they used a one way hash instead, obviously with a secure hash algorithm, uniquely salted and rehashed multiple times. All passwords would then be the same length when stored and users wouldn't have to have such a low maximum limit.

There are worse offenders for low character limits, like Adobe with a 12 char maximum. Used to be a site that listed some, just a shame it's no longer available http://web.archive.org/web/20100526105638/http://www.weakpas...

The Steam forums were hacked in Nov 2011. The hackers got access to a DB with Steam users' personal information.

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2011/11/valve-confirms-steam-h...

Valve's game development servers were also hacked, and Half Life 2's source code was leaked before the game even launched.

No company is immune from hacking, the best anyone can hope for is secure hashing functions are in place and that financial and user account data are properly separated.

I have mixed feelings about that. On the one hand, I fully agree - I hate having all kinds of junky game clients running on my computer when I ought to just be able to have one, Steam, which is obviously doing a decent job.

On the other hand, I think that competition will drive Steam to be better (or maybe, just maybe, result in something better than Steam), and so I don't necessarily want the other companies to stop trying to compete entirely, either.

I agree. However, in every current case Steam is just making all these other platforms look bad.

The other companies aren't really trying to compete with Steam per se, they just want to inject their own custom babysitter to analyze your computer and see if they're complying with their rules. When you open a game from Steam that's produced by one of these companies, it chains in its own loaders and achievements and stuff. It totally sucks, and it's a terrible end user experience.

It'll be exciting when the fogies in charge of these companies die out. They seem to have difficulty grasping the concept of computers and digital distribution.

I think they are probably more interested in avoiding the ~15-30% (rumored) cut that Steam takes for digital sales of their games. And I know in EA's case, they want to sell DLC through their game, not through Steam's client specifically to avoid that charge (that's the reason some EA games were removed from Steam when Valve changed their policy on the matter).

They do this even on games purchased directly through Steam. It's obviously not about cutting out Steam, because they still facilitate their sales via Steam and presumably are still obliged to render commissions. As Ubisoft says in their own announcement, UPlay did not accept payments directly; distribution channels like Steam or physical retail were still required to obtain the games.

This isn't really a market that benefits from competition doing anything less than the same the same thing, though. Steam is acting as more of a dumb distributor than a publisher, and are an established player. All Ubisoft and EA have is their own titles. They're not going to attract indie players, and they're not going to attract other publishers' work if all they're trying to do is utilize their titles to garner users. In other words, they're not currently trying to be the next Steam, they just want to take a bite out of Steam.

If either of those companies wants to make a real effort at getting a distribution platform off the ground by competing with Steam on the developer side and the pricing side, then that's competition I'm willing to see. As it stands, they're simply trying to leverage their developers' work into membership.

Can't speak for Ubisoft, but Origin sells games not published by EA. I think right now they sell Sega, Square and Warner Brother games. They also sell physical copies of games not published by them, including some Valve games. They're growing their catalog.

That's a pretty lousy, defeatist attitude to have.

"Girls, stop trying to be as good at math as boys -- you won't."

"Google, stop trying to do better than AltaVista/HotBot/Lycos/Excite -- you won't."

"Apple/Linux, stop trying to do better than Microsoft -- you won't."

"PlayStation/Xbox, stop trying to do better than Nintendo -- you won't."

"Tesla, stop trying to do better than Toyota -- you won't."

"Renewable energy companies, stop trying to do better than fossil fuels -- you won't."

"User-hostile dinosaur companies. Stop trying to do better than..." Oh wait.

Relying on one service is good for no one. Specially consumers.

It's better for my hard drive and RAM. It's bad enough having just one program on my PC whose only purpose is to allow me to play the games I've purchased legitimately, I don't want any more.

It's also better for That One Service... but that's besides the point. ;-)

Here is a good list of DRM free Ubisoft games: http://www.gog.com/catalogue?search=Ubisoft

This doesn't matter though in regards to personal information. Any service where you buy the game will have your information for the sake of enabling purchase. Steam is no better here, and even GOG. If either of them is hacked - your personal info will be leaked.

This is what happens when companies try to own the customer relationship and use their own customers as strategic weapons. Steam isn't a neutral party.

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