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Comment by ramblerman | Hacker News Reader

--- US Secretary of State John Kerry said it would be "deeply troubling" if it became clear that China had "wilfully" allowed him to fly out of Hong Kong. ---

As a generally pro US European I have to wonder if the US realizes the extent of the PR disaster it is creating with each passing statement. I mean what does this idle threat really accomplish?

It makes China look good, it makes the states look like the bully and it carries absolutely zero weight. If anything it just makes China look stronger internationally.

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Give me a break. You think anyone is going to care next week when the attention of the media will shift, as it always does, to whatever else is most eyeball baiting, elsewhere in the world.

The baseline strategy has been more or less the same. Hide Obama from the press. Send out robotic talking heads to spew about anything remotely relevant to the issue at hand. And wait for the press to get distracted by something else.

I am racking my brain to come up with an incident that was under the media spotlight that actually pushed the Govt. to act.

Well as a foreigner, this whole entire debacle has changed my entire outlook on the US. I don't have faith in your institutions anymore at all.

I understand the public at large will not feel this way, and will simply pass to the next distraction shortly, but this lack of faith I've built up, is going to stay with me for a while.

So instead of a happy Canadian tuning in to your elections and being extremely excited about the future like I was in 2008, I truly believe that your entire system is completely hopeless. No true change can come out of it.

As a site filled with entrepeneurs (should that be past tense these days?), I would hope HN readers realize how much this ordeal is damaging the prospects of us US-based entrepeneurs to expand to foreign markets, particularly if our business deals with anything that people don't want in random government officials' hands.

My interaction with Americans has not been in a professional setting, but my opinion of them is that they're very unknowledgeable about things happening outside their country. This is not a slander, but they genuinely think that since they're Americans, they need to know only about their country. I do not blame them because when I was there I noticed that all news channels focused only on news in America. There wasn't even a half hour of 'world news' at anytime one would be free to watch the news.

This is quite sad because the TV was meant as a way to inform the common people of things happening far away. Granted, the present generation can hop on to websites and read stuff there but honestly, the generation that actually votes and practically decides who's in the government are the ones who're not getting broad exposure to all news.

Our unAmerican perception is somewhat biased by how much we know about the US. Just because people from country A know a lot more about the US than then US people know about them, doesn't mean that people from country A are any more knowledgeable about country B than the US Americans are.

But, of course, we from A still love to laugh about the dumb Americans.

My friend who studied in the US said that Americans just in general have a view that they are different and therefore uniquely special. If you have that type of worldview, I imagine it's difficult to really think of the outside world much; perhaps it's even unnatural.

edit: The thought that prompted this whole comment, which I forgot to write. 9/11 happened when he was studying at university. He said there was a big shock among all the students with whom he studied, and among the citizens in general. He said up to that point, Americans had felt that they were untouchable, and this event proved otherwise, really shaking their worldview. I found it most interesting that he said that Americans seemed to think they were untouchable in the first place.

There is actually a term for how Americans view their status, American Exceptionalism (the term appears to have evolved over the years): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism

This attitude is easily seen when they call their baseball championship the World Series, when the Miami Heat refer to themselves as basketball's World Champions, etc. In such an saturated environment, I imagine it becomes so self-reinforcing that you cannot blame some (but not all) of American citizens for just thinking the same way.

To be fair, the Miami Heat are essentially the U.S. Olympic basketball team at this point, who won gold last summer, so in that sense they are the World Champions.

The Heat can call themselves whatever they want, but since 2009, the NBA championship banners have said "NBA Champions" rather than "World Champions".

This was given some publicity at the time, though a quick search doesn't turn up any references, other than photos of the banners.

As far as the World Series, is there any real dispute that it's effectively the world championship?

What is the World Baseball Classic then? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Baseball_Classic

Look, for the Heat, the interesting fact isn't whether or not the NBA acknowledges them as World Champions. It's that they referred to themselves as World Champions. That's what's interesting to me, the fact that this type of attitude can even exist.

Whether or not a team can be called a world champion is probably up to two factors:

1) Is their league the best league in the world?

2) Is there no truly international competition that would be acknowledged as having a similar or higher level of competition?

For example, for soccer and MLS, the answer is no for both questions because the World Cup and the Euro tournament are tops, with the World Cup being number 1. Even the Olympics can't come close precisely because FIFA disallows their best players from competing in the Olympics in order to make the World Cup a more spectacular event. And the MLS certainly isn't up to par with leagues in Europe.

For hockey and the NHL, the answer is yes for both questions because the only other regular competition that comes even close is the IIHF World Championship, and it is a sub-par level of competition. The NHL tried to make their own World Cup a regular event with attendance from multiple nations, but failed to sustain it regularly. If they had succeeded, that World Cup event would probably be able to say that they crowned the real World Champions. The Olympics are the only thing that comes close, and that is heavily contingent on the NHL's willingness to send their players to the Olympics, which the NHL has repeatedly stated is an undesirable burden for them.

For baseball, I think it's clear that the World Baseball Classic trumps MLB on both questions, and it helps a lot that MLB is a big contributor to the tournament so that the best players are sure to be there.

For American football and the NFL, there's no argument. Superbowl = World Champs hands down.

I'd say likewise for whoever wins the NBA championship.

But there's a difference between knowing that you won in the best league in the world and are probably the best team in the world and actually publicly calling yourself the best team in the world when you didn't compete with anyone from other nations. The debate is further confused when teams have international players, so are players representing their cities (as in league championships) or their countries (as in the Olympics, World Baseball Classic, World Cup)? It's a lot of comparing apples to oranges, so the whole debate is very muddied, and sometimes I wonder why we even care about it. But the debate is what it is.

edits for clarity

You are largely comparing club competition to national competition. Club teams can arguably be better than national teams, especially in leagues with loose restrictions on international players.

Bayern Munich didn't play against Spain to win the Champion's League... I would would love to see the top club teams play the top national teams in a competitive setting.

Ask Manu Ginobili or Tony Parker how well the Heat can do against people from other nations.

Arguing the merits of specific leagues doesn't really go anywhere... Things like Financial Fair Play, international restrictions or salary caps get in the way of producing the true "world's greatest club team" in any league. Do you expect all type-A personality, hyper competitive people to be super humble? That's not a common mix...

I honestly don't see how anything you said contradicts anything I said. Reading your comment, it seems like you disagree with me, but I cannot figure out why because it also seems that I agree with you. Something is not clicking here. :)

> Look, for the Heat, the interesting fact isn't whether or not the NBA acknowledges them as World Champions. It's that they referred to themselves as World Champions.

We disagree about what's interesting.

>The Heat can call themselves whatever they want

Ah, but it's precisely this what we're talking about. I calling myself a World Heavyweight champion because I defeated everyone in the country...

"My interaction with Americans has not been in a professional setting, but my opinion of them is that they're very unknowledgeable about things happening outside their country"

My interaction with my fellow non-American countrymen is that many of them not only are not interested in what happens outside their country, but also what happens INSIDE, unless this somewhat affects them directly (say, taxes rise).

Of course an equal number of them are knowledgeble and really concerned about what happens in our country, and the rest of the world.

And probably there are hundreds of variations beetween these two extremes.

My hunch is that it's the same more or less everywhere around the world, US included.

It's just naive to try to condense millions of people in a single (or two, or three) stereotype.

Where are you from and what is the most important thing happening in the world today?

Exactly. If your government can look into a foreigner's private data without any notice to the holder, then good luck and good bye.

As a non-US citizen - I live in Adelaide, South Australia, it is entertaining watching the US Government's reaction, stamping it's feet and calling names like a child, like they think anyone actually believes they matter any more. I know that's a strong statement, and it's directly entirely at the US Gov. not at it's people.

The Bush and Obama administrations have literally made the US the laughing stock of the world, and although it really is rather entertaining, reflectively, this is the world I have grown up in - I'm 32, and I guess it's sad, upon consideration, that I've never known an "America" that was a nation everyone looked up to.

I'm imagining the governments of China and Russia, and any other country along the way, or the destination, just sitting around going "Huh! Hahahahahaha! Pfffffff!" and "Oh look, there goes Snowden, should we capture him, naaaaah, watching the US squirm and stamp it's feet like a child is way too entertaining".

My opinion and observations of the US Gov. over the past couple decades, and my reading of it's history, is pretty bleak, it's as though the only difference between US, China, Russia, India, South Africa, etc etc, is that all the other governments are overtly corrupt. Or, that was a difference.

Another interesting perspective on the Global Diplomatic Climate is that the USA literally is a child, it has existed for only 237 years since the Declaration of Independence. Russia, China, India, these peoples have persisted for millennia.

I guess if you want to be the best in the world, you should at least do what the best-in-the-world are doing, the USA doesn't rank Number 1 in any of the areas that matter to people as human beings.

I think what we'll be witnessing over the next couple of decades is the US being put in its rightful place: at the table, not at the head of it - I mean, it already is that way, with China and Russia constantly vetoing US desires at the UN Security Council, and then the US Military just doing it anyway, but I believe increasingly the rest of the world will not tolerate what is perceived to be the USs 'bullying'.

> [..] it has existed for only 237 years since the Declaration of Independence.

That doesn't matter too much. Humans live for much shorter times, and their can learn not only from their own compatriots. The US's current continuity of government is actually pretty old at 237 years. Russia, China and India's current incarnations are much younger. And especially India was almost never a unified country before the British came along.

While it is disappointing and frustrating to watch what the American government has been upto these past few years, I would still say the US is, and shall remain for years to come in a league above the country's you mention.

There is a good indicators to measure this, and that is the lines at the visa counters of American embassies the world over. Those numbers aren't shrinking.

You're right, but many foreigners think, including myself, that things will change for the worst in the years to come.

Taking your point of immigration, what if the US's unemployment rate continues to climb? I'm sure that many people who would immigrate would not know, as they're going to the US on an advertising pitch (the American Dream), but I'm sure plenty will turn tail and do some sensible research in regards to their prospects in a new country. A 15% to 20% unemployment rate looks rather uninviting. Some interesting statistics that aren't alarmist at the moment: http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-states/unemployment-r...

There's also the problem with the overton window to the right that we've seen in the past 30 years. I could see a potentiality where an extremist extremely limits immigration. Any specific extremist policy focused inward will also reverberate throughout the world. There's a reason many choose to not go to Greece or Mexico anymore, and that's because of their reputations.

There's no doubt your statement is correct, and that the US will have global hegemony for years to come due to its military, but I'd like you to put on your optimist hat and tell me why that's a good thing at all. Thanks

  Well as a foreigner, this whole entire debacle has changed 
  my entire outlook on the US. I don't have faith in your
  institutions anymore at all.

Great! That is a step in the right direction. Distrusting the government is a great American tradition. Even the founding father did not, in a sense, have too much faith in the governmental institutions and tried to set up a system in which the latter could do less damage. Success is partial.

Send out robotic talking heads to spew about anything remotely relevant to the issue at hand.

IIRC Kerry was a presidential candidate, one of Reddit's favourites (meaning the most liberal of dems), now the Secretary of State, replacing Hillary Clinton. I'd say he's in a good position for next primaries.

So not exactly "robotic talking head", or I wish he wouldn't be. It's specially disappointing hearing that from him.

Since you have 2 identical parties that enact the same policies and follow the same course for many years I see no reason for anyone on this planet (both inside the US and outside) to actually care about the outcome of any future primaries or elections in the US.

Well, I'm not from the USA (actually I've never been there) and I care. The only way this terrible situation gets fixed is that the USA, maybe with some "help" from outside, fixes it. Otherwise, we're screwed... both inside the US and outside.

Obama is also an incredibly skilled actor and manipulator. You have no idea.

Check out this 67 page examination of Obama's use of covert hypnosis techniques during his 2007/2008 election campaign [PDF]: http://tinyurl.com/5zyxsy

Sounds pretty far fetched right? Obama would never do such a thing. Besides, the American people would never fall for that...

No URL shorteners on HN please. They obscure were the URL leads to.

Do a Duck Duck Go search for it and you'll find it.

Obama is manipulator? Compared to Putin he is just lost child. He was f*cked in his ass by Russia more times that I can count. Obama is incredibly naive, his world-view makes him vulnerable to manipulations of all kinds. Those techniques you refer to were just invention of his staff, he did all of this without even understanding what he is doing.

It makes China look like a good world citizen and the US look like a self righteous sabre rattling bully.

Well only if you are incredibly ignorant or have selective amnesia.

China is far, far from a good world citizen. They commit some of the worst human rights abuses, have rampant censorship and lest we forget their system of government is hardly democratic.

From where I sit US does not look that much different. Guantanamo, extraordinary rendition, drone, all this PRISM stuff.

I agree. But the second part of the statement is still true, "the US look like a self righteous sabre rattling bully"

I think "it makes China look better" would be more accurate. China is a brutal[1] totalitarian regime without the rule of law, freedom of speech, freedom of the press, or basic civil rights that people in much of the developed world take for granted.

But over the past 12 years, the USA looks increasingly like a brutal[2] authoritarian regime without the rule of law, an informed electorate, or basic civil rights that people in much of the developed world take for granted.

That doesn't make China look good. But it makes China look a whole lot more normal as a powerful nation.

[1]: torture, secret prisons, indefinite detention without trial, forced abortions, etc

[2]: torture, secret prisons, indefinite detention without trial, assassination, lack of basic healthcare, etc

That's because leaders of US and China are both socialists. Similarities between the two will gradually increase

The US has lost it's moral high ground over freedom and privacy, it's bordering on hypocritical.

We know the Chinese government at the national level can see at any time what is going on in Chinese variants of social networking sites (from the basis that all these servers are typically hosted in Beijing).

What we didn't know was the US are doing this at a global level, and they have been trying to keep it secret all this time. That's something we did not realistically expect.

In this particular instance, the US is no better than China in respecting and protecting the privacy of individuals, and not impinging on their freedoms.

Snowden did the US citizens and the world a favour by exposing Prism. Now we can do something about it. Now we can seriously decide how important our privacy is. We see how deep the rabbit hole is. That's a starting point to correcting this.

Well only if you are incredibly ignorant or have selective amnesia.

The US is far, far from a good world citizen. They commit some of the worst human rights abuses, have rampant censorship and lest we forget their system of government is hardly democratic.

PS: apart from the achromatic base colors, nothing in life is that black and white.

To clarify, I was referring to the public statements made by China and the US regarding Snowdon and his revelations (you know, this thread?).

Also I sad, 'look like'.

China doesn't look any better, US OTOH looks much worse right now.

> It makes China look good, it makes the states look like the bully

Is it this specific statement that does that, or their whole policy? They've chosen to fight Snowden, so at this point any statements they make are unlikely to change minds, but they do help keep the support of people who already think of Snowden as a traitor.

It's like an awful lot of politics, where the aim isn't to change minds, the aim is to make sure the minds who agree with you don't forget to support you.

International politics is a never-ending chain of negotiations about all kinds of issues. Obama + Kerry aren't going retaliate directly, but they'll certainly keep this in mind the next time China asks for something and the US may not be very understanding. It might be a trade negotiation. Or it might be the US getting involved in Taiwan-China relations. Or the next extradition request from China. Lots of ways this can play out in the long term.

The US doesn't have the strong hand it had a few weeks ago: catching China redhanded breaking into US servers. That was a bigger trump, until the US got caught doing the very same thing.

The "you didn't give us Snowden" card isn't going to be as impressive, especially in an international context. With the US treatment of Bradley Manning, that card isn't really a playable one. The humble pie of being outed as hypocrites over hacking - that setback is going to take a while to overcome.

It's possible China have no real involvement in this - plausible deniability. Hong Kong is a Special Administrative Region, meaning they are largely left alone in legal matters (except perhaps in exceptional matters - which Snowden, for all the news coverage, isn't).

According to a WashPo article, they indicate that HK officials "quietly encouraged" Snowden to leave. They also name an HK official who is "sympathetic to Beijing" as the one to have delayed the US's extradition request, which never made it to a judge.

Regardless of the extent of China's involvement, it sounds like HK really didn't want to get involved.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/detail...

  I have to wonder if the US realizes the extent of the PR disaster

Is "the US" the government of the US or the people of the US? Big difference.

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