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Comment by shazow | Hacker News Reader

This worries me.

I've met all too many designers and engineers who started out exactly like this, and years later come to realize that they've been underpaid by more than 50% below market rate for half a decade, and have little more to show for it than one entry on their resume and a case of Stockholm syndrome.

That's a home they could have bought if they knew their real value and weren't being exploited by a greedy employer. It's years of bitterness and job dissatisfaction they could have avoided by better knowing their value and having the right kind of ambition-inspiring peer pressure.

Let's assume you're not such a person, but at the same time I hope you would help educate your young designer about what exactly she's sacrificing by working with you at a salary of "making more than her mother." Please help her understand what she could be earning if she's willing to possibly relocate and hustle a bit, and allow her to make an informed decision.

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While this sort of exploitation is egregious, I think that part of the responsibility lies with the employee. At the end of the day, the company is simply using the employee's labor to further its own ends and enrich its shareholders. In the same way that one would hire an accountant to minimize their tax burden or clip coupons to save money at the grocery store, a company will go out of their way to pay as little as possible for labor. The idea of trying to maximize value is certainly nothing new. What more do you expect?

Ultimately, one can only expect companies to do what is in their best interest, which is often antithetical to the employee's interests. One has to take responsibility and ensure that they get paid fairly. The employers certainly won't.

I'm sure she would be capable of researching this for herself. An employer doesn't have an obligation to point out that the guy over the road is paying more. Besides there are other factors that come into play besides salary.

I've shown her exactly what "entry level graphic designer salary" is on the 'net. Moreover, she's been told that if she isn't delivering 100%, I'll let her go, because the company needs that full-tilt startup delivery. She knows what she's getting into. She's actually thrilled with it - she instinctively understands the value of giving 100% as a measure of self-worth.

Keep in mind she has no education beyond high school, no professional experience, and some pretty serious holes in her skill set. She's simply not equipped to land a $50k job on her own right now, even if that is "entry level". Her choice is between taking this, or bagging groceries, or taking tens of thousands in loans to go to college (which may or may not get her a job after). And when her skills are rounded out and the money is there, I'll pay her going rate, and gladly.

Moreover, she's not just my employee - she's my friend, and my daughter's friend. I'm not hiring her because she's cheap. I'm hiring her because I have faith in her talent, her drive, and her taste. I'd rather take her on and spend a few months polishing her skills than take my chances with a "better" employee whose taste I don't yet trust.

So yeah, far from exploiting her, I'm trying to groom and mentor her to build the kind of career I believe she should have.

>>So yeah, far from exploiting her, I'm trying to groom and mentor her to build the kind of career I believe she should have.

Yes, I'm sure this is what you're telling yourself.

So you're exploiting her and psychologically pressuring her.

If you cannot afford a "full-tilt startup" designer, you should question the morality of taking advantage of a teenage girl to try and get that.

> she instinctively understands the value of giving 100% as a measure of self-worth.

Instead of money, of course. She's not worth that.

> she has no education beyond high school

Completely irrelevant.

> when her skills are rounded out and the money is there, I'll pay her going rate, and glady.

No, you won't. There will always be one more skill she lacks and there will always be one more thing you need to buy "for the company" (but use yourself, of course, because it's your company).

The money isn't there. This is an unfunded, bootstrapped startup right now. I'm paying her out of my pocket from the day job I keep to get us far enough to get funding. She can participate for equity now, or wait until I have money for a salary.

By "take advantage", you mean offering her a direct path into her intended career.

As for how much I'm planning to pay her when we can get funded: I was planning on $30k salary. Per indeed.com, "entry level graphic designer minneapolis" is $31k. At the national level, that number can go as high as $50k, but frankly, she doesn't have the skills (yet) to get a $50k job. After a couple of years, she will.

You're offering her "a direct path" just as much as anyone on Craigslist willing to "let" someone develop their for idea "for the exposure."

So just based on what you've said in this comment, you're giving her the choice of either working for a small percentage of 0 ("equity") or she can wait until you have the money. Should you ever get the money, you're going to pay her just under market for an entry-level job. If you don't get money for 2 years, she's clearly no longer entry-level, you've gotten years of work from an impressionable young girl for free, and you're going to do her the favor of paying below-market wages.

Maybe your intentions are good and it's just the execution that is piss poor, but judging on the comments on this post you are seriously taking this girl for a ride and you should be ashamed of yourself.

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