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Comment by blairbeckwith | Hacker News Reader

Reading some of the comments on that blog post, I left thinking: Am I a terrible person?

I just don't see what's wrong with this project, and I certainly don't see the link between it and "sexual violence" – where is Kickstarter making this connection? Say what you will about the seduction community, my very brief and infrequent encounters with it have been largely positive and I left thinking that they were a generally respectful, if a little bit misguided, group. There's some of their terms and techniques I don't like, such as "negging", but there's things like that in virtually every community that I don't like.

Certainly not sexually violent.

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Grabbing a woman's hand and forcing her to touch your exposed penis is, I think, sexual violence by almost any reasonable standard.

If a girl is already in a private, intimate setting with you after you've met her a few times – like that part of the guide relates to – then sex probably isn't too much of an unreasonable assumption.

Of course that counter-article cherry-picked quotes from all over the guide and threw them together to make it sound like these were all things you should do on first meeting someone

It really really depends on the context and how you define "force". This doesn't even come close to mild sado maso.

A kiss can be sexual assault, especially against minors. But even strangling (which I don't do and never did to a woman) can be part of consential sex. It's really sensitive subject. Let's not talk about fifty shades of gray...

"Consent" isn't discussed enough. For example prostitution is widely seen as consential, despite tons of evidence that prostitution hardly ever is a conscious, free career choice, and rape is rape no matter how much you pay to the pimp...

>For example prostitution is widely seen as consential, despite tons of evidence that prostitution hardly ever is a conscious, free career choice, and rape is rape no matter how much you pay to the pimp

But you are entering the realm of misogyny again. The, "Oh, no one would wilfully chose this profession society finds immoral, they must be a victim of happenstance." It is a difficult thing to get around now days.

No. I'm not saying "no woman wilfully chooses". What I meant was that there is tons of evidence that completely wilful choice of prostitution is the exception, not the norm.

I'm also alleging that no "client" of prostitutes can know if the woman gets beaten regularly, was forced into prostitution, is coerced not to leave or was hooked on drugs. I don't believe a drug addict can consent to paid sex.

I don't believe illegal immigrants who were smuggled into a country and "indentured" can wilfully consent to prostitution. But their patrons choose to think so, and they look the other way.

Actually it's completely context dependant.

The context, which is conveniently being ignored in most of the discussion, is that at this point you are already "fooling around", at which point it might actually be a fairly reasonable thing to do.

It also says "If she says no, stop immediately"

What you are describing is still sexual violence. Forcing someone into a form of contact they didn't consent to, even if there has been some other kind of intimate contact, is still sexual violence. A lot of sexual assaults occur in this way.

So trying to kiss a girl that you've been out on several dates with is sexual assault?

If you are violating their boundaries, then yes. I don't know if you are aware of this, but people who have been assaulted may have a problem with people violating their physical space and you doing something that you consider harmless may actually be a big deal. The point is get consent and default to doing no harm, which is basic human decency.

According to what I've gleaned from the folks against this book, you need explicit verbal consent before proceeding with that kiss even if the girl in question has been with you for several years. If not, you may possibly be unwittingly sexually assaulting her because she was too afraid to say no. Even if she kisses you back, she may be doing so out of fear.

So the key takeaway is; you can never be sure if you're raping someone or if you had implied verbal consent so if you don't have explicit verbal consent, stay the hell away from her.

And for you shy people who don't have the courage to ask your partners for verbal consent and never get asked; it's better to be celibate than a potential rapist.

No?

"Decide that you’re going to sit in a position where you can rub her leg and back. Physically pick her up and sit her on your lap. Don’t ask for permission. Be dominant. Force her to rebuff your advances."

The author's response:

http://pastebin.com/zwHYzCZe

> The thing that the commenters on social media are leaving out is that the advice was taken from a section in the guide offering advice on what to do AFTER a man has met a cute girl, gotten her phone number, gone on dates, spent time getting to know her, and now are alone behind closed doors fooling around. If "Don't wait for signs, make the first move" promotes sexual assault, then "Kiss the Girl" from The Little Mermaid was a song about rape.

Doesn't seem very rapey when you consider this is after several dates and they are alone together. He also says over and over again "If she says no, stop immediately".

The relevant quotes were not on the kickstarter page itself.

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