NSA whistleblower Russ Tice goes on record with new revelations
boilingfrogspost.com
boilingfrogspost.com
As she went through the proper channels to report what she had seen, she was eventually fired as a result of her allegations [3]. Her testimony was also sealed by John Ashcroft under the states secrets privilege [4], which is exactly what has happened with the recent Snowden allegations [5].
Personally I think Sibel Edmonds is one of the most reliable people in the whistleblower community and that she has a lot to say that's being hidden from the public.
[1] http://www.aclu.org/national-security/sibel-edmonds-patriot-...
[2] http://www.nswbc.org/Press%20Releases/NSWBC-911Comm.htm
[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sibel_Edmonds#cite_note-oig_upd...
[4] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sibel_Edmonds#FBI_career
[5] http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/07/us-government-sp...
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At 0:48:26 Tice mentions the intercept order for then-Senatorial candidate Obama.
He also mentions that senior civilian, military and government leaders were explicitly targeted.
Some of the notable intercept targets included Colin Powell, Hillary Clinton, Samuel Alito, former FISA Court judges, U.S. Congressional intelligence committees, law firms, financial firms, State Department personnel, humanitarian NGOs.
Lawyers and civil rights groups were mentioned as well, I'm wondering if EFF was included in that.
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Tice previously played off his unclassified resume's listing of space-based systems expertise as a cover story for his activities at NSA. However, he has now revealed that he specialized in space-based capabilities at NSA all along. This is humorous when you consider the following:
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/01/nsa-whistlebl-2/
Do you have any connection to outer space stuff? I asked.
"I watch Buck Rogers."
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Also of note: NSA's Bluffdale, Utah data storage facility is apparently already online and operational.
He stands at a very interesting intersection between civilian leadership (head of the NSA) and military leadership (head of US CyberCommand).
Does the interview mention how someone who left the NSA in 2005 would know this?
He also said that he could not read most of said message due to misplacing the key-code.
EDIT: My original reply likely butchered terminology, sorry. The relevant audio can be heard verbatim at 1:03:11 in the interview recording.
What do you think?
Given the above, and not making any judgment as to the veracity of the claim, there isn't enough evidence for mainstream media to publish. Compare with allegation of the Syrian government's use of Sarin for which there is equally little evidence but media outlets are quick to publish because it is inline with government interests.
Your point about international media outlets is taken and it is the best evidence of how less-biased outlets feel about the story. I can't find the story on Russia Today or Al-Jazeera for example.
In short, I agree with you that lack of reporting from foreign outlets is indicative that they think there isn't enough evidence to report it.
Just to be clear we are talking about different things: You are talking about whether the claims are true, or more sensibly, whether they are supported by credible evidence. I am making a more narrow point about the fact that media institutions are strongly influenced^ by government and corporate interests. That is true independent of whether Tice's claims are.
^ Obviously foreign institutions are far less influenced by other foreign governments and are therefore more reliable when reporting on those foreign governments, though not always (e.g. Iraq WMD claims).
Name three.
Seymour Hersh, Greg Palast, the crew at Democracy Now! (Amy Goodman, Juan Gonzales). Who else? It's a pretty short list.
I can't think of any remaining "mainstream" (corporate) journalists. They've all gotten the Dan Rather treatment.
Some bloggers have managed to swim upstream, eg Paul Krugman and Matthew Yglesias. But most muckraking work (eg Fire Dog Lake) is not corporate funded. Thom Hartmann is kinda unique. And lefties like Rachel Maddow are commentators, not doing original reporting.
Note also that Greenwald has special circumstances which reduce his influence from corporate and US interests. First he works for a subsidiary of a UK corporation and does not report on UK issues. I also don't think he reports on corporate issues that would affect Guardian advertising. Finally, he lives in Brazil which may reduce US influence on him.
All that said no one is saying that corporate journalists never break stories that are critical to government or corporations, only that they are under strong influence not to and the effect is that few such stories are produced.
If you talk shit about your boss (even if it is true and done politely) it will probably negatively affect you. If you support your boss you will probably reap rewards. The result is a system where people are influenced not to criticise their boss not a system where no one ever does.
But as I said "The result is a system where people are influenced not to criticise their boss not a system where no one ever does."
The story is told by Eric Lichtblau here:
http://www.democracynow.org/2008/4/1/exclusivebushs_law_eric...
Key quote:
> AMY GOODMAN: Is it right, Eric, you were still — the Times wasn’t going to run this story until to your colleague Jim at the New York Times was going to publish his book, and that put the Times in a tremendously awkward position? It’s going to come out anyway, and their reporters are not the ones who are going to reveal it.
> ERIC LICHTBLAU: Yeah, that’s true, for the most part.
I don't know if this is the right example to support your argument.
US corporate media, on the other hand, subscribes to the "view from nowhere" style [3], which they mistake for objectivity. It makes them easily manipulated; when you create a controversy, they are obliged to move away from it. That gets you the classic, "Opinions on Shape of Earth Differ: Round or Flat?" journalism. [4]
This is compounded by the way newspaper journalism has been in decline for years, and was even before the Internet drank their milkshake. [5] Now, major newspapers feel very vulnerable, and one of their few remaining assets is that people in power will talk to them. That makes them basically stenographers to power. [6]
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Guardian#Political_stance_a... [2] http://pressthink.org/2013/06/politics-some-politics-none-tw... [3] http://pressthink.org/2010/11/the-view-from-nowhere-question... [4] http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2005/08/opinions_on_sha.html [5] http://davidsimon.com/do-you-know-who-i-am/#comment-6754 [6] http://billayers.wordpress.com/2013/06/11/our-media-stenogra...
The Guardian, Al Jazeera, The Christian Science Monitor, a few others, are in no way comparable to properties owned by media conglomerates. You know this.
If not "corporate", how would you refer to likes of News Corp, Clear Channel, Time Warner, Disney, etc? "Purveyors of propaganda for the power elite?" "Anti-democratic radical right wing noise echo chambers?"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_media
"Corporate media" is a term which refers to a system of mass media production, distribution, ownership, and funding which is dominated by corporations and their CEOs. It is sometimes used as a term of derision to indicate a media system which does not serve the public interest in place of the mainstream media or "MSM," which tends to be used by both the political left and the right as a derisive term.
Why is this story off limits but those stories not?
Not exactly a major media outlet. But it's something.
Leaving aside the interesting questions about how and why the media is covering this story, if you are attacking Tice on the grounds that his claims are not credible, you are in a weak position given that his previous claims on this matter have been very publicly vindicated in the past two weeks, while yours have been demonstrated wrong again and again.
My post was an ad-hominem attack (but not an ill-intentioned one) because I continue to be mystified how you can repeatedly insist there is no story "here". Does it not BOTHER you that your government is claiming the privilege to conduct at-will surveillance of anyone based on suspicion of a crime? Or the very visible way these tools and others have been used to intimidate the press over the past few months and cover-up official wrong-doing? What about excessive levels of government secrecy (which of the documents released to date do you consider sensitive enough not to merit public discussion)?
What exactly needs to be happen in this story for you to stop defending the status quo?
If I had to bet, he probably got bored after he stopped beating his wife. When did you embark on your hobby of begging questions?
I want to know what's actually happening, not what HN thinks must be happening.
I don't know what your vendetta is against him, but please- take ad-hominem attacks back to reddit. I don't always agree with what he has to say, but I do find his perspective more interesting then your attacks.
He's certainly not doing that here.
EDIT: (which doesn't mean I think your original question is wrong)
If you or 'trevelyan believe I'm wrong, and that there is or will soon be major media coverage about this story, or that major media coverage doesn't signify anything, you can say that.
However your credibility will inevitably influence how people respond to the question and the answer. For example, if hypothetically somebody has shown a pattern of saying "there's no story here", using whatever rhetorical technique works best in a given situation to support your views, and then frequently being shown wrong when it turns out there genuinely is a story here even though some of the initial details were incorrect or had insufficent evidence ... well, in that case, others would very reasonably take past history into account when they see the same pattern coming up.
I have no idea whether there or not there will be major media coverage about the story. The lack of coverage so far implies to me that (a) there isn't yet sufficient supporting evidence or documentation for this and (b) there are enough real disclosures that people are being careful about airing insufficiently supported claims and (c) it hasn't gotten to "Obama birth certificate" levels of significant attention even though there's not sufficient supporting evidence.
That said, given that Tice has at least some credibility on this front, I also think these allegations should cast suspicion on claims you have made that there is reasonable judicial oversight of America's public security apparati, a belief you have used to cast suspicion on statements from whistleblowers like Snowden whom you have attacked in the past.
And it's entirely possible I'm reading too much into your comments (in which case I apologize). But if that's the case, an easy way to avoid it would be countering your public statements that are critical of whistleblowers with the occasional statement clarifying your personal belief in the legality or morality of the actions which they allege are taking place. A statement expressing your belief that surveillance should only occur after probable cause and with specific judicial oversight would put me, and I suspect the others upvoting my comments, much more at ease.
I'm not complaining that you've somehow hurt my feelings by pursuing your own notion of what's in my head. You're an anonymous commenter; I don't care what you think about me. I'm complaining that we're unable to address simple questions without personalizing them. Like I said: this is an actual instance of the ad-hominem fallacy. My question doesn't get more or less valid based on my ideology.
For what reason(s) should/would the NSA spy on so many politicians?
There are a couple of weak justifications that could be made, but you pretty quickly wind up in conspiracy territory. Not that this is unprecedented, but most people quickly dismiss anything from anyone who sounds like they are advancing a gov't conspiracy theory. You don't want to put things like that out without a firm footing.
I agree that this is another problem with his story; cui bono? This would be an extremely high-profile, probably criminal overreach by the NSA, of a person who had nothing resembling the public profile he has today, to what benefit?
Yes I know this isn't a legal argument, but if someone receives immunity for actions that would otherwise be unacceptable they should not receive the benefit of the doubt when accused. The burden should be on them to prove they deserve our continued trust.
Is it really so much to ask that we criticize the government for things that we know it actually did?
And how would that remotely explain Powell, who would have been cleared to the highest levels decades before this program?
I've always thought that if the allegations were somehow true, that someone at one of those groups would have leaked something that would keep Obama from being president or from continuing as president. Yet, that never happened despite the fact that he obviously would have been investigated by plenty of people in those spy organizations.
So, the fact that Obama was spied on should not come as a surprise. It would surprise me if people in power weren't spied on.
Even if their home countries were to agree to foot the bill for airfare back to their home countries, how are you going to get them to agree to that? You'd need someone to negotiate details. That someone costs money.
Detainees will need to be processed by customs before being released. Custom's officers don't work for free. Do detainees even have their passports? Where are replacement passports going to come from, and who's going to pay for that?
Whatever your views on Guantanamo Bay, to think that it's not going to cost anything is simply naive. That's not to say that sufficiently motivated home countries couldn't pay for it, but it's going to cost someone somewhere.
Nothing in politics (or life, even) is simple, so you might as well start by assuming it's hard and conclude it's simple after you've eliminated all the things that could make it hard, rather than the other way around.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/dec/8/congress-deal...
Obama regularly makes trips to various parts of the world for at least a few days. Let's say that for the rest of his presidency he spends ten days less on the road. That's $50mm saved.
Wikipedia says there are around 50 permanently detained persons. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detention_camp#D...
That leaves around $1mm per detainee to wind down gitmo. I know it's the government so everything is expensive (especially when the military is concerned) but I don't remember commercial flights costing anywhere near $1mm each. Let's say we fly them first class, that's $20k per person, tops. Add in $50k of cash we just hand to them in a bribe to not hate us forever (foolish I know, but what they hell!) a grand for the travel agent, a couple grand for new clothes and such, and that leaves over $900k for lawyering.
Seems fairly doable to me.
This system is all about control and preserve power.
But wait, who watches..