Old Japanese maps on Google Earth unveil prejudices | Hacker News Reader

Old Japanese maps on Google Earth unveil prejudices

tech.yahoo.com

41 pointsjuanpablo29 comments

The bizarre thing about the complaints about the maps is that Matsuoka initially criticized Google for displaying the maps and even complained to the Justice Minister about them, but when the references to burakumin communities about which he complained were removed, a representative of the organization of which he is secretary-general asserted that removing them was an act of prejudice. It seems as though there is nothing Google can do regarding these maps besides not making them available. In a situation in which the only option that would not be considered prejudiced is to not provide useful information, the complainers are probably being oversensitive. The information about discrimination against descendants of burakumin in Japan does somewhat justify their oversensitivity, but prejudice in Japanese culture is no reason to suppress these maps.

Not a reason, but, is the reason. Unspoken, but commonly understood, paradox.

>Two weeks later, after the public comments and at least one reporter contacted Google, the old Japanese maps were suddenly changed, wiped clean of any references to the buraku villages.

What else was Google supposed to do? They don't want to get involved in these crazy cultural wars. They just make information available: it's the culture which attaches weird connotations to it.

>There was no note made of the changes, and they were seen by some as an attempt to quietly dodge the issue.

Circular. Who are the unnamed "some"?

>"This is like saying those people didn't exist. There are people for whom this is their hometown, who are still living there now," said Takashi Uchino from the Buraku Liberation League headquarters in Tokyo.

Bizarre. If Google Earth did not exist, would these people cease to exist?

>The League also sent a letter to Google, a copy of which was provided to The Associated Press. It wants a meeting to discuss its knowledge of the buraku issue and position on the use of its services for discrimination.

Google has no knowledge of the buraku issue, doesn't care like you idiots do, and are in a much saner headspace than the lot of you.

Quoting ekiru: The information about discrimination against descendants of burakumin in Japan does somewhat justify their oversensitivity, but prejudice in Japanese culture is no reason to suppress these maps.

-- right, while they are totally unable to actually fix ongoing prejudice, and can do nothing in the face of large well-known companies following the same discriminatory policy, they target the one company that probably truly does not discriminate based on their pet issue.

simply displaying a historical document is not prejudice; what this is instead is just another indication that the japanese are incapable of coming to terms with their past and that their supposedly modern society continues to harbor a primitive mentality that would be considered distasteful and shocking in a westerner.

But the problem is that this is not purely a historical document, it is an ongoing rights issue. By publishing these maps on top of modern maps, Google is facilitating the racism against these people.

respectfully, I posit that the right to information outweighs the potential negatives for which it may be used. If we were to allow what you suggest(cultural sensitivities) to be a legitimate basis for the suppression of knowledge, then clearly we should begin stoking the fires for our book burnings.

I think you're missing the point. As was indicated in the article, these maps were already available on the web. And presumably you could find them on, well, google.

This is not a censorship issue. This is about being sensitive to the outcome of your actions. Information wants to be free, sure, but some information is hurtful. And as a publisher you have a duty to at least take that into account.

Perhaps this means not adding documents with hurtful slurs in them to Google Maps (especially in a format that can easily be used to aid further discrimination). Or, perhaps a better solution is ADDING information and context to these maps. After all, the remedy to bad speech is more speech.

Obviously Google should have the right to post the maps and line them up with modern-day Japan with no further context, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea.

Would this argument apply to a library as well? Would you want this map to be removed from the library? A map store?

Google not like a publisher. A publisher would be the one that ordered and funded the creation of this map.

Google is more like a library with a really fast full text indexed card catalog. They take the content from the publisher. "Google's mission is to organize the world's information and make it universally accessible and useful"

Google just created a link to this data in Google Earth. You can add context to the data in Google Earth.

Well, no. But I wouldn't necessarily want Mein Kampf on the recommended reading list for school chilren. Not without any context, anyway.

Recommended - no. But the "recommended" part is only in your post. I'm not sure why you mentioned that.

Otherwise - Yes, Mein Kampf is available to everyone who can use internet / library / ...

Sorry, I wasn't very clear.

The things selected for inclusion on a Google Maps tab are an editorial choice. I'm suggesting they are analogous to a "recommended book list" -- a subset of all the available books that a librarian has chosen to highlight. Just as being listed in Google's index is analogous to being shelved in the library. (Surely, no one here is suggesting that anything be removed from Google's index.)

Clear now?

So if google was around in WW2, and Himmler published a map of where all the Jews lived - you would support the publishing of this map?

This is more than "cultural sensitivies", Burakumin suffer from outright racism, they cannot get jobs, they cannot marry outside their group. Any informational support for this injustice does not get my support.

If it might incite immediate violence, then there is a possible argument for limiting distribution of something that would cause or significantly aid violent acts. But the threat of violence would need to be imminent for it to be justified. If anything, though, better communication and information availability is often recognized as empowering to populations.

If you can hire a company to check where someone's ancestors lived, I think it's already out of the bag. You can't just pretend the maps don't exist.

Pretending they don't exist isn't the same as adding an easy-to-use tab that lines them up with modern Japan.

This would be a much different situation if, say, Google was being asked to remove links to these maps from their index.

And not publishing them (or worse, editing them as suggested above) would make Google complicit in pretending the issue doesn't exist.

Let's say Google Maps puts up an old map of some major city in your country with certain neighbourhoods marked 'negro'. How would that go down? I agree that information itself cannot be evil (and I would probably disagree with the reasons this Japanese gentleman is against the maps), but there is an editing involved in choosing which information to publish, and which not. This is poor editing on the part of Google.

Or perhaps parts of a city are notated with a different N-word... Even though it would surely be legal to post this in Google Maps without any context, that doesn't mean it's a good idea.

That's between the people who made or refer to the map and the people who were/are discriminated against. You don't deal with unpleasant history by erasing it and pretending it didn't happen. On the more serious issue of actual genocide, the most bitter political feuds are between the people who were hurt by it and those who want to pretend it never happened and needn't be talked about.

I don't think it's poor editing on the part of Google at all. Poor editing would be altering the historical record in order to assuage the feelings of one group who might be made uncomfortable. To run with your example, if you're going to alter the map why not go the whole way and replace 'negro' with 'happy black people live here'?

It's a sad but seemingly universal fact that when one social group oppresses another and later people ask 'why are the conditions of (oppressed group) so awful?', the self-serving response of oppressing group is 'they choose to live that way', ascribing their negative situation to some inherent defect on the part of the oppressed.

"You don't deal with unpleasant history by erasing it and pretending it didn't happen."

Unfortunately, this is exactly how Japanese society (and others) tend to "deal with" unpleasant history.

Here's an apropos anecdote: I have a Japanese friend who came to Australia to study. One day, her and her friends were in the city on Anzac day - a national holiday to commemorate war dead, basically. They were standing at a bus stop, talking, when some youths in a car threw some eggs at them. They were, of course, horrified, and had no idea why anyone would do that.

It was only some time later it was explained to her - while the egg-throwing was just stupid, it was probably because she was loudly speaking Japanese in the city, near the war memorial, on Anzac day, and Japan had attacked Australia numerous times, causing many of the dead the day is supposed to commemorate. Imagine my amazement when I realised she had absolutely no idea Japan had attacked Australia in WWII. Just never been mentioned. There were over 100 attacks, in (from memory) 5 places. These are, of course, famous in our culture - it's the only time the country has ever actually been attacked. She had no idea.

Un-fucking-believable. And btw, please don't take this as racist or anything else - I'm just stating facts, and I fear us whiteys do not hold much higher a moral ground - I doubt your average American college graduate, for example, is as well-informed as she perhaps ought to be about her Government's reprehensible actions in Latin America in the second half of the 20th century either.

That would be awesome! The juxtaposition of the modern and the archaic is artistically interesting. It would be a glimpse at how things used to be, accompanied by a reminder of how much things have changed, and it might let people feel the passage of time on an emotional level. I would love to see this hypothetical old 'here there be darkies' map on Google Earth.

I agree. The underlying issue is the Japanese government's inability to pass any laws protecting human rights. If you refused to hire someone in the US because of their ethnic background, your company would be in serious legal trouble. (I'm pretty sure that even paying someone to check it out would be illegal, actually.) In Japan, this is apparently OK.

Google maps are not the problem, the government is.

I agree. I was referring to the prejudices of some Japanese people, not Google's. Now this issues are being discussed publicly. I think that's a good thing.

In 14th century Venice, Jews were only permitted to live in an area of the city known as Ghetto. The word has since acquired many more layers of unpleasant antisemitic connotations, yet Ghetto is marked on tourist maps of Venice today.

Maybe Tokyo will eventually become as open about its history -- but before that can happen, quite a few people will have to stop thinking about others by 17th century Edo period standards, it seems.

About the Japan's buraku: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=436453

The layers just need a localized disclaimer: "For the satisfying of history curious only. Not to be used for the other purpose. (Prejudicing.)"

So you're the guy who buys the Grateful Dead 420 Bong and only uses it for tobacco. :)

Well now I really want to see the uncensored maps. Anyone got a link?

Is this some sort of long-winded joke?

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