Hacker News Reader

Comment by mitchellh | Hacker News Reader

I worked at an Apple store for over a year as a "salesperson" (we called them Mac Specialists at the time). Let me input my two cents:

I was trained to do this. From day one of dedicated 8-hour training sessions, we're trained to find customers the right "solution" rather than get the most money. This requires using the APPLE technique (acronym, google it). The second P stands for "Present a solution for the customer to take home today." It was common knowledge at the time (4 years ago) that consumers were brainwashed to thinking faster/more is always better. But when we can save them hundreds of dollars, this isn't the case. There were many many times I talked someone out of a $2,000 MacBook Pro for a $1200 entry-level iMac with double the specs because after probing (the first "P") I learned they didn't need to be mobile. This was really, really common.

And note, this isn't about trying to convince people to spend less. Sometimes after probing, we learned they needed _more_. It is about the RIGHT solution.

To add to this: specialists don't earn commission. We weren't ranked based on financial sales numbers (there are other metrics, however). There is no incentive for specialists to sell more expensive or less expensive things. It is about the right thing.

So, this guy was just doing what he was trained to do. It is Apple store standard.

View on HN

I came here meaning to be all snarky and cynical. I was going to say there's no way Apple trained him to do that, and they'd probably fire him when they caught on to what he was doing.

Thanks for posting this and letting me know I was wrong. I still am puzzled. Apple is not shy about squeezing the bucks out of consumers. But this shows a level of customer-orientation that I didn't expect to see.

Google does this as well. My dad's small business was shelling out thousands on AdWords per month. Their rep reached out to us, without solicitation, and offered to optimize our ad campaigns. They did so, and saved us at least $1,000 a month. This was a few years ago but I hope they're still the same.

So does Amazon, someone reached out to us and told us that we could save around $10,000 on our hosting costs if we went with reserved instances

My bank did this to me.

Called me to say if you close and re-open your internet based savings account you will get the higher "intro" interest rate for 4 months. I explained that I had always wondered about this loop hole... Before I even got around to visiting a branch close/re-open, I read on my statement that the bonus interest rate has been applied.

This sounds more like someone boosting their personal numbers than company policy.

This can go both ways, often the reps don't have enough domain knowledge to offer you anything that will actually improve ROI. Assuming you already know your way around the adwords basics.

They may actually suggest broader terms and higher bids which will cost you more.

You can make more money from lifetime customers than you can one-time customers.

One thing Apple has excelled at over its history is building a base of lifetime customers.

> You can make more money from lifetime customers than you can one-time customers.

Exactly. And not only that, as TFAA did you may well get free advertisement to friends, family and the internet at large about how nice and human the experience was likely bringing in multiple lifetime customers.

That is why it is annoying that people used to say that the only reason Apple is popular is because of marketing. Apple does so many things well.

Yes, it's similar to how some people claim Android is just a cheap knock-off of iOS despite the obvious philosophical differences. There's always a very vocal minority that put so much ego into their tech choices that make it very unpleasant to try to have a public discussion about the pros and cons of various platforms.

Yeah, unfortunately, it's just tribalism, a natural human inclination. Much of the discussion space of the internet seems to be devoted to this same sort of investment = identity problem; "fanboyism" is a common label for it, but it stems from the human need for group identification, and is alas a very easy, though shallow, way to achieve it.

Like customer service such that customers perpetuate said marketing.

People say this? Apple's products are clearly well designed and engineered.

I think Samsung is doing phenomenally well because of marketing and getting the telecoms to push their phones hard (financial incentive?)

I'm not sure about this. I think Samsung is doing well because they have great products for fair prices, but I'm continually let down by their marketing. They could take a page from Apple in this dept.

Example: Their Smart TV can be controlled with your hand in the air! I've been dreaming of this since I was 5 back in the 80's and when I saw the commercial they put out the only thing I could think was 'meh'. Even when Apple does something incremental like the iPhone 5 their marketing still leaves you with a sense of awe.

To be fair, their smart tv's motion controls were pretty tetchy when I tried to use it (at a Best Buy, so clearly not the intended scenario, but at least a foreseeable one).

I've not had a chance to try it out, shame that it's not as good as it could be. All the more reason to market it effectively :)

> Shame that it's not as good as it could be.

This describes my thoughts on all Samsung phones... littered with half-working, buggy features that would not be put into production at any other company who's primary goal isn't to check off a slew of features.

There's a common refrain below the fold on tech websites that people who use Apple products, or even like them, have been brain washed by a mass marketing campaign and that's the only reason why. 'Sheeple', 'iSheep' etc are often thrown about. Mac fanboys don't get a reprieve on that, but in general there's a theme that Apple only does well because of marketing.

This is marketing.

[not trying to detract from your wider point]

Apple really gets that in their stores. too bad they also try to hold you with non-standard things and lock-in tactics.

maybe they now that too well.

But for people that research before reaching for the wallet, it's all the same.

"You can sheer a sheep many times but you can only skin it once."

Great point. Give your customers something of value and make sure it is what they need, not just what you want to sell them.

When people feel they have been treated fairly they will come back over and over. Not being taken advantage of as a consumer is such a unique experience that it will stick out in their mind!

Actually it's a long-term strategy. Happy customer is returning customer.

Happy customers are repeat customers. Apple understand that perfectly.

Apple is most definitely shy of squeezing the bucks out of customers and they've proven that they have been willing to go to bat for customers to get a reasonable price. Not the lowest, not the best, but reasonable enough to keep things within reach of as many people as possible. They've even fought tooth and nail to create whole new economies that might not have existed at all even if it means kicking the doors open for competitors. Not just for you and me, not just because there's competition, but because their strategy as a whole demands it and I think it's proven very effective for them. If they really wanted to bleed customers to maximize their profits you can bet that we would have seen SIGNIFICANTLY higher prices for things like music and iPods etc. They work hard to keep prices as low as they can without sacrificing quality.

It's not like it's some nefarious plot to create lock in either. It's simply a long term business strategy that I don't think the industry as a whole ever truly understood or appreciated until things really got tight. Apple's not the only one playing the satisfied customer game either, nor is it some novel concept, which is why it's always baffled me that folks who are interested in the long game don't bother to do the same thing on a consistent basis. Looking out for and providing customers with the best/most cost effective solutions you can offer to solve their problems creates a virtuous cycle. Sure, you may never see them again, but treat a person well and chances are very good, especially in a market like hardware and software, that you will and/or you'll see their friends.

"Squeezing the bucks out of consumers" leaves them dry.

Apple wants them to stay customers. There are a lot more bucks in the long term.

Really anything else is an extremely short-sighted business model.

It also gives the sales person a genuine feeling that draws customers to interact with them for help instead of the typical kind of confrontational relationship in a customer/sales person interaction.

Across the entire customer population it probably sells more stuff in aggregate than if the confrontational approach is used...

Likely a long-term customer satisfaction thing. Someone who buys a Macbook Air and comes back and buys another one two years later is worth more than someone who buys a Macbook Pro, and, feeling ripped off, gets a Dell next time.

Another former Apple retail specialist checking in. This is pretty much dead on. I redirected people to different models than they thought they wanted plenty of times after talking with them to dig up their needs. Sometimes cheaper, sometimes more expensive, but always to better fit their needs. Having also worked at Best Buy, where bleeding people dry was common (at least at my store), I can tell you it's a much different atmosphere.

Another interesting point, which echoes what others have said about life-long customers and word of mouth advertising, Apple collects customer surveys. Only extremely high scores count positively for the specialist. Those people are considered to have had such a good experience that they would actually promote their experience to others that they know.

I agree that Apple, as the case is at every brick-and-mortar store that I'm loyal to (B&H Photo has often talked me out of expensive purchases), has a great incentive to not oversell an unneeded product.

However, I think we need more data on recommendations before we can argue that the intent is entirely altruistic. As others have said, the low-end model is also the same model as the "Vanilla" build, i.e. the model that Apple has plenty of in stock...and a purchase in-store (with the possibility of upselling on other accessories) is more valuable than a purchase from the web. If it's the case that Apple sells a disproportionate amount of its Vanilla stock in-store, then is it coincidence that the Vanilla stock happens to be the perfect fit for so many customers? How many slightly-upgraded (but not in-stock) models are customers convinced to buy...because there has to be at least a few customers for whom the MBP is not ideal, but a slightly upgraded MBA is needed.

And if you want to be totally cynical, you could argue that Apple is ensuring that the customer returns in the nearer future by selling them a less future-proof model. Yes, customers have loyalty based on the reliability of the brand...but if the compassionate-sales-job is so effective, then that alone may be good enough of a memory for the customer to overlook that he/she is replacing a new laptop a year earlier than expected.

Altruism is not a required part of the explanation.

This is a beautiful case of win/win. Apple wins by having a lower cost of good (on the "vanilla") and the customer wins by spending just enough to get what they need (not more).

The more we can find these win/win situations, the better our economy will be. The closer we can match consumer costs to the the economic costs of their consumption, the more accurately the existing "Free" market will match the ideal market.

APPLE:

Approach and welcome the customer.

Probe to understand their problem.

Present your solution to their problem. (And make sure something happens now.)

Listen for lingering issues.

End with a polite good-bye and ask them to come back.

Thanks for this insight from your experience. I was going to comment question this takeaway from the OP:

"Apple recognizes what few other retailers do: customer satisfaction starts even before a product is purchased, and it is customer satisfaction that makes companies great."

I had expected this was just an idiosyncrasy of that particular salesperson, but you make a good case that Apple intends for this behavior to be common. Thanks!

So to be clear about this you're saying that if you walk into an apple store and have already decided to purchase a particular model that Apple says that you should ask the customer why they need that particular model? Or just if they ask you?

Yes, you're supposed to try to probe the customer to learn more about their use case. This doesn't need to be rude or abrupt, it can be a casual "So what do you do?" or "Tell me more about what you're going to use this machine for while it is pulled off the shelf for you."

If someone is dead set on getting a model, you aren't rude to them. Ever. But you do your best to make them happy.

Out of curiosity, if a customer came in to buy a $1,500 machine, but what they really need is a $200 Chromebook, what would you do?

EDIT: thanks for the down votes, but its an honest question. What if the customer comes in, and the solution that is best for them is not something sold by Apple? In particular, Apple only sell high end products. I have jad salespeople tell me to go to a low end competitor in the past, and some will just try to sell you the high end stuff.

When I worked Apple retail (in a shopping mall) back in 2005, I walked a customer out to the Dell cart and helped them pick out a laptop because they had some Windows only real estate software that wouldn't run very well on Virtual PC.

Wow, impressive! More high margin places should operate like that.

Please, tell me why stores should get in the business of working against their best interest.

Because maybe next time the customer will come back shopping for a personal machine instead of one they need to run some Windows app. And they’ll remember the great service from round one.

Because in the long term it is not working against their best interest. If I know that a store will not try to sell me stuff that is a poor match to my needs, then I know I can trust that store. When I go into a store that tells me to buy a piece of equipment that doesn't match my needs, or a T-shirt in a colour that looks terrible on me, I often find out later and tell my friends.

People rave about Apple downselling and Amazon allowing low score reviews on their products because in the long run its good business.

Please keep in mind though that it is a well known technique to try to build loyalty by doing something that the customer doesn't expect that isn't in your best interest.

The problem is this doesn't always work and isn't applicable in all situations.

The customer that you sell a laptop to may or may not return. But the salesman selling oracle would get fired for pushing a competitors product under the guise of building loyalty.

The problem is that practices like this are specific to certain places and situations.

Lastly, if you are a local small dealer you simply can't afford to easily lose a sale with the hope that the loyalty is paid back for years to come. You generally have to make hay while the sun shines.

As far as this thread goes, rednukleus did specifically say "high margin places". But yeah, it's just an often-overlooked angle on a (still) hard problem.

I'm not sure about your example of the local dealer. The "local" part implies to me that personal relationships and long memories will play a relatively large role in someone's business. It could be extremely beneficial to at least be seen as looking out for others to your detriment, and it would probably be easier to do for real than to fake convincingly for a long period unless your customers are ignorant.

Oh I don't know, we might end up with a better world...

nah, never mind.

If a company sells a product to a customer who needs something different, that customer will assume the product is bad. Saying "my company failed because my software didn't run on those Apple machines" is nonsense to us, but your average consumer will take this as a sign to actively avoid Apple products. If that customer never had a bad experience with Apple, it's less likely they'll complain about them.

You're right in that case.

However in the case of trying to get a customer to buy something more powerful than they need, the product will work just fine from the perspective from the customer; it's just that it still would've worked fine for them and they would've retained more money if they went with something less powerful.

There may be some economic dynamics I'm missing out on (aversion to buying Apple products in the future for being too pricey, maybe), but it seems like it'd generally be in a company's best interest to try and get their customers to purchase their most expensive projects. That is why the article linked seems so unusual yet refreshing.

I often direct people interested in my saas product to competitors when the fit is better.

Love that approach. You aren't losing a sale — you are (1) preventing what was almost guaranteed to be a dissatisfied customer and (2) winning over a potential future customer for life. If there is any need for your service in the future it is a guaranteed sale from a customer that already holds you in high regard.

Well done.

I think it is reasonable for a sales person to only sell products by his employer.

If you walk into an Apple Store, wouldn't you expect to get the best Apple solution for your problem? Same in a Microsoft store, just with a Microsoft solution.

I don't think it is unreasonable for an Apple salesperson to try to sell the Apple product, but I think its even better if they choose and are allowed to recommend competitors when they have the more appropriate product. I was just curious to know which way Apple staff did it.

Or an iPod touch with a cloud storage option.

I was at a trade show last week for a company which sells 3D printers of Makerbot-style besides R&D. Next to us was a company selling 3D printing as a service but on professional machines, thus finer resolution and larger objects. I referred several people to them and one visitor was simply astonished that I sold 'another company' to him. To me it was a matter of common sense because he'd been unhappy with our printers.

What they do nowadays is to suggest to grab an iPad instead. In the Apple product line, that is the cheap computer for people that don't really need a computer, or wouldn't be able to operate it properly.

A sales rep at the Apple Store did this with my wife, actually. When the unibody 13" MacBooks were released, she was dead-set on getting it. However, she assumed that the sales reps would try to up-sell her to a 17" MacBook Pro, so she tried to downplay her typical computer usage as much as possible. She went to the Apple Store and explained that she wanted a laptop for basic word processing, web browsing, and viewing photos, but, to her dismay, the rep directed her to the older, white plastic MacBooks and insisted that they would be the best fit for her! My wife had a great time trying to explain in the least superficial way possible that she was willing to pay more money for the better-looking computer, lol.

I've never been an Apple employee, but read enough about their sales tactics. Probing <> Underselling.

If you know you want to buy a MacBook Pro, they'll be glad to take your money. But if you demonstrate that you're not sure about which model is more appropriate for you, or you seemed uncertain about the differences between a MBP and a MBA, that's when the "[P]robing" and the "[P]resent a Solution" make sense.

It's a lot better to have a happy customer today (even if for a lower ticket price), than an undecided and confused customer for the rest of the week/month. (Or, worse, with buyer's remorse for years).

That's the opposite approach of most other retail shops. The sales person usually pushes for the most expensive item first, usually motivated by the direct commissions model. Good for him/her and for the store, but not always in the best interest of the customer.

Yes, they'll inquire about your needs. I asked for my iphone with maximum memory and was asked about it. I'm a digital packrat and willing to pay extra to not have to unclutter my music, movies, media, and apps as often. I briefly explained this and we moved on with the purchase process.

Yup. I just upgraded to an iPhone 5 and I was asked why I wanted the 64gb model. My 32gb 4S was full. :)

The employees also had decent knowledge of how AT&T's service plans worked and were as to answer all of my questions. The service at the AT&T store at the same mall was a slap in the face.

I agree and have seen this in action. My last MBP I had to buy in store to get a certain discount. At first I was annoyed that the salesperson kept probing while waiting for the other salesperson to get my MBP. After a bit of back and forth he explained exactly what you did here. He wanted to make sure I was getting what I needed and if it saved me money in the process so be it. So props to Apple and it's another reason why I've stuck with Apple laptops since the G4 Powerbook days.

If a customer requires more RAM, how do you 'sell' a ram upgrade knowing that its so much cheaper elsewhere?

I always told them to get it elsewhere if they were comfortable with installing it on their own, exactly because Apple charges so much. Specifically, I recommended OWC. Apple is completely okay with this, as long as you make it clear that the RAM is _not_ covered by AppleCare.

The reason Apple's RAM is so expensive is because it undergoes very thorough RAM tests to verify it is 100%, and is also covered by AppleCare. So if your RAM goes bad, they'll replace it. Of course there is a large upsell $$$ here, but you're paying for stability. Some people just feel better going 100% Apple, despite the charge.

Of course, I never had an issue with RAM from OWC, so I always recommended it. I even helped a few customers purchase it in-store using the display units.

Totally fine.

Another cool story: You may or may not know, but new Mac computers used to (may still do) come with a $100 rebate towards a printer. The entry-level printer is exactly $100, so it is essentially free. There really is no catch here except you have to wait 4 to 6 weeks for the check to arrive. We (Apple store employees) knew that most people forget to file for their rebate, and manufacturers bank on this. So we were all officially trained to help file the rebate form in the store as part of the checkout process, to make sure the customer got it.

Also, even if the customer didn't want the printer, we'd usually try to sell it (for free, remember), and tell them to sell it on Craigslist, because they could get an easy $20 to $30. shrug Again, this was encouraged.

>The reason Apple's RAM is so expensive is because it undergoes very thorough RAM tests to verify it is 100%, and is also covered by AppleCare. So if your RAM goes bad, they'll replace it.

Isn't that second thing the case with OWC RAM too? That it's covered by some guarantee and that if it goes bad, they'll replace it?

OWC will definitely replace faulty RAM free of charge (example: we bought 2-4 sticks for each of 6 computers a while back, and three of the sticks were bad - very simple return process and they sent out replacements before the originals were returned).

I think the OP's point is that buying RAM through Apple (at a hefty premium) is a significant convenience for some people: if there's an issue - any issue - with the computer, take it back to Apple and they'll sort it out. Buying third-party RAM isn't quite as convenient.

Of course, in my experience Apple will happily look at your computer even with third-party RAM, but they obviously won't fix any issues caused by it.

OWC and Ramjet will both replace RAM. Ramjet has a page on their testing[1]. I have had great experiences with both companies.

1) http://www.ramjet.com/pages/mac-memory

I think the rebate program is discontinued. Not sure — third party hearsay.

http://www.macrumors.com/2012/01/17/apple-ends-100-printer-r...

For the record, you can't manually upgrade the RAM on a Macbook Air (it's soldered to the motherboard), so selling a RAM upgrade on them is reasonable. On the other computers it is important though.

APPLE technique: (?)

- Ask

- Pause

- Probe / Pick

- Listen

- Elaborate

per http://www.exforsys.com/career-center/facilitator/core-skill...

"An effective facilitator does not just end at asking effective questions. Proper timing and accurate delivery are also important. For a good and effective facilitation, the APPLE technique might work best. APPLE is the acronym for asking the question, pausing to allow the participants to comprehend the question and think of an answer, picking a member to provide an answer, listening to the answer provided, and expounding or elaborating more on the answers given. More importantly, listen to the answers of the questions you asked."

I don't disbelieve you and that's fantastic, but here's some anecdata:

I recommend to my sis-in-law that she get a Air for her 13 year old son because I knew that the SSD makes a BIG difference.

The Apple shop sold her a MBP because quote "it's faster".

Yes, the cpu has a higher MHz but please.

Did he or she tell the salesman they liked to play games? Such as statement could swing a recommendation (especially if interpreted as "Call of Duty" rather than "Minesweeper").

You know better than the Apple guy, but if your sis does not trust your opinion and did not tell the Apple guy what she needed then what do you expect?

Or maybe you were wrong?

When was this? The current MBP has an SSD, too.

Well, that's great. Could you send some of your colleagues over here (Spain)? Cause I definetly think they didn't follow the same training sessions as you did.

Also South Africa, here its just up sell, up sell

Note that the article talks about Apple Retail Stores, i.e. he stores owned and operated by Apple itself. Right now, there aren’t any of these in South Africa: http://www.apple.com/retail/storelist/

There are no official Apple Retail stores in South Africa, only stores run by Core Group which is the official distributor. That's why they're called 'iStores' and not 'Apple stores', they're not the real deal.

With few exceptions, the sales staff at South African iStores are utterly awful; the smarmiest, smuggest and most deceitful bunch I've had the displeasure to buy from who will most certainly not try to find you the solution that suits you best but will try to upsell you on the option that boosts their commission the most.

It would do wonders for Apple's damaged reputation in South Africa to establish an official presence and set up real Apple Retail stores.

From your perspective, how do you think they were able to get all the Mac Specialists to be trained so well to making sure it's customer satisfaction that's maximize and not sales? Like what makes their training so different? Was it because Mac Specialists truly believed in what the company stood for? How was in the incentive scheme different? Thanks! I'm just curious as I'm in business school part-time and of course, Apple is the outlier when it comes to customer satisfaction - especially since they go against the idea of commission.

The "other" metrics are customer satisfaction and volume of AppleCare attached. No wonder these very metrics define the behavior described by the OP.

This isn't just an ethical way to do business--it's also profitable. The OP seems to be a very satisfied customer. Apple may have lost $750 (gross) on this one purchase, but over the next 10 years will likely make much, much more than $750 on the OP's future purchases, which the OP might not make if he/she were a dissatisfied customer.

This seems obvious, but many businesses don't seem to understand this.

It just occured to me that this a reason to favor corporate sales offices over dealerships. Dealerships have a much smaller incentive to play the long game and so try to squeeze every last penny out of you whether you need that option or not (or through shady practices like weird processing fees).

I hope tesla wins over the car dealerships...

Are you at liberty to expand on what the other metrics are?

Reply on news.ycombinator.com