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Comment by bherms | Hacker News Reader

Yes. Taxes are pretty high, so making $100k w/ benefits, you take home roughly $63k/yr. Then factor in rent and utilities: 1br ($2500+/mo), 2br w/ roomie ($1800+/mo), 3br w/roomies ($1500/mo). So let's assume 2br. You walk away with around $40k/yr. Then take out transport, cell phone, random monthly bills like student loans, etc and you're down to $28k disposable. Take out food and random living expenses and you don't have much left.

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> $28k disposable... don't have much left.

For some context:

> In 2010, in the United States, the poverty threshold for one person under 65 was US$11,344 (annual income);

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_threshold

and

> Half of Americans live below or at the poverty line

http://www.salon.com/2013/05/30/half_of_americans_living_bel...

Now, I know that SF is one of the more expensive places to live in this country, but still.

You misquoted Salon - they said below or /near/ the poverty line. And near is highly subjective. The census number they cite in the article is 15% which is a long way from half, and there is nothing in the article that gets the number to half the population.

Note the difference in the URL vs the final title: it's why I misquoted, accidentally.

Sorry, didn't mean to nitpick the misquote as much as to point out that the implication seems far from reality: 15% actual poverty rate vs the 50% implied by Salon. I'm sure the people living between 16% and 20% aren't living large, but the article doesn't support the 50% claim.

The Salon article has a strongly biased and is inconsistent with the Wikipedia link.

Some facts from the US Census: The US median annual household income is $52,762 for the 2007-2011 period, the latest available [1]. This means half of US household made less than $52,762 and half made more than $52,762 during this period. The Census often averages over multi-year periods to adjust for the economic cycle. In 2011 alone the media was $50,502, down due to the recession.

By Census definition income does not include either reductions for taxes or additions for noncash assistance (food, housing, medical). A household is defined as a group of one or more people living together regardless of relationship (marriage, birth). The average household size is 2.60 people in 2007-2001.

[1] http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html

28k for food and random living expenses is a lot of money unless you are eating out for every meal; that's more that some people's entire paycheck (like grad students.) If you can't make room for savings in there, it definitely shows a lack of priorities.

It's twice the typical grad student pay check. (Ignoring the tuition/healthcare coverage you normally get, anyway.)

Well some people's priorities might involve having an active social life, dressing well, paying for entertainment, etc... all of which will be expensive.

It's not a "lack" of priorities, it's just a different set of them.

The point being that not thinking about the future is in fact a lack of priorities. The party is not going to last forever and not planning for that in the slightest is very short-sighted.

You can have an active social life without completely disregarding the future.

And that's your problem. I was the same way, though I live in NYC. With every pay raise I upgraded my lifestyle. Whether I was making $50k/year or $100k/year, I wasn't saving anything more besides the shit I was contributing to my 401k. My savings actually grew smaller over the years, until I made a conscious effort to save money. An effort so simple, I kick myself for not realizing it sooner.

Several simple ways I found to save money living in NYC (not SF, but close enough). Note these figures are on a per-year basis.

  - Scrap web hosting, move to AWS and S3 (~120 saved)
  - Get rid of cable, stick with cheap Internet (~1000 saved, Internet ~40/mo)
  - One night less at the bar each week (~2500 saved, that's just for a $40 tab)
  - Skip buying coffee every day (~500 saved)
  - Get a cheaper phone package (~120 saved)

In the end, I think a good rule of thumb is to keep your daily expenses under $20. You want to dress well? Wait for Banana Republic to have a 40% off everything sale, and buy clothes then. Buy clothes you're actually going to wear more than once (this is easy for guys, women have it harder).

I don't know your lifestyle or actually care what you spend money on, but complaining you can't save money is a bullshit excuse. I was bullshitting myself too, and I think everyone's got spending habits they can curb without impacting their lifestyle.

I'm not complaining about anything, I'm just pointing out that for some people saving money isn't their first or only priority, but doesn't mean they have no priorities.

$70 a day for “food and random living expenses” is far from not having much left, particularly after your $12K for “transport, cell phone, random monthly bills like student loans” which is pretty generous. Sure, you can definitely spend that much but it's not like you need to have every single meal at a nice restaurant, go to bars every night, etc.

Very true, just speaking from first-hand experience. I'm trying to pay off all my (astronomical) student loan debt as fast as possible, so I'm putting around $1800/mo into loans alone. Factor in my biggest hobby is seeing live music and you'd be surprised how quickly money can go. I've cut back severely on my drinking/partying, but with the occasional trip home to see family, 401k contribution, loan payments, and more, I walk away with about $28k/yr for all other expenses (including food, transport, cell phone, random services like spotify and netflix, and fun). Keep in mind I also got rid of my car, don't have cable, and keep monthly recurring expenses pretty low. $28k sounds like a lot, but when food is about 30% more on average than most of America (just my estimate after being back in Indiana), sales taxes are higher, and everything costs more in general, it goes quickly. I'm adjusting my priorities as I get older, but my salary also goes up and I get closer to having no debt, so it balances out I think.

Yeah, I don't want to come across as too critical but given how many people are making 30-40K before taxes I do feel the perspective is important. The major expense you mentioned is student loans and the degree to which you are not an outlier there scares me as it means that a significant people under 30, even relatively high-income professionals, are unable to make one of the best life moves because they're paying off debt rather than investing to accrue 3-4 decades of interest.

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