Obama does not feel Americans' privacy violated
reuters.com
reuters.com
Either they need all this access and funding to surveil a large number of dangerous people, or they dont need either to surveil such a small number of people. If it only resulted in 300 phone numbers to track, then sure, maybe the privacy violations weren't as bad (hypothetically). But that argument then puts the whole program at a ridiculous cost to threat ratio, and should be shutdown because it isn't effective at all and is a waste of taxpayer money.
Lose, Lose NSA - You're either violating our liberties or wasting our money.
You can't represent cost:threat ratio as dollars per person tracked. The major reason for why the program exists is to detect and break-up one-off major terrorist plots so even if the NSA was detecting all worldwide terror plans against the U.S. the number of people they were tracking would never be very high.
This is what all the people saying that the risk of dying from terrorism is so completely low have been reminding us, remember?
But let me guess, victim blaming is OK, as long as the victims are Americans?
Sure you can. If you're only using the program to track 300 people, the average cost is the total cost divided by 300.
As you point out, there is a very small risk of dying from a terrorist plot is low. So if we're spending so much money and only tracking 300 people, there is clearly a problem.
It's not that the NSA's entire mission has boiled down to monitoring 300 phone numbers worldwide.
What is being stated is that "[l]ast year, fewer than 300 phone numbers were checked against the database of millions of U.S. phone records gathered daily by the NSA". (http://seattletimes.com/html/nationworld/2021199412_nsatechd...)
Of course there is more at play here, but they should be selling how many terrorist attacks they avoided, now how many people they snooped.
But that argument then puts the whole program at a ridiculous cost to threat ratio.
Major terrorist acts e.g. 9/11 have a devastating impact on the economy. It results in a country-wide drop in consumer spending, consumer confidence, business spending, business confidence, hiring etc. As well as locally in areas like tourism. It alone accounted for a 1.1% drop in the third quarter GDP in 2011.
As an example in NYC alone 430,000 jobs and 2.8 billion in wages were lost in the 3 months after 9/11. Which in turn results in a big drop in the tax collected.
Then finally there is the after effects. No 9/11 and there would have been no costly invasion into Iraq/Afghanistan which has cost trillions of dollars and an obscene number of lives. Major terrorist acts always demand a response by the public.
So out of all the things the government does protecting its citizens seems like something that will always be "worth the money".
We could have never allowed foreign tourists into the country. That has a cost associated with it, right? That would prevented Saudis from going to flight school and booking those flights, right? Shouldn't protecting lives be before every other consideration?
No, we have to balance things. Protecting life can not prevent us from living our lives. Not everything the government chooses to do is worth the price.
Because I was specifically talking about the costs associated with terrorist acts. And that preventing them has significant and widespread benefits to the economy. It's pretty clear that focusing just on ROI alone this program is easily worth the price.
Intercepting messages with either "reasonable" means or "unreasonable means + probable cause warrant" also doesn't violate the Fourth Amendment.
So I wouldn't necessarily make your sole complaint about the legality of the program, as it may very well soon be both legal and Constitutional.
What about all that stuff about chilling effects and anonymous speech?
We let idiots have their stupid rallies because it's not the government's job to decide who gets to speak, and because the laws you would like to use against the KKK or WBC end up getting used against Malcolm X or Occupy protestors at a different time or in a different part of the country.
And just to remind everyone, the reason we're worried about chilling effects and anonymous speech is that you don't want the first person to write anything challenging corrupt power structures to get indicted with "throw everything at the wall and see what sticks" charges backstopped by prolific surveillance, or have their house burned down by ideological opponents who use government powers to discover dissidents and are subsequently never prosecuted. Not only does that allow the injustice of corrupt power retaliating against activists for good, there is a real risk that the retaliation will be an effective deterrent to future activists.
Which is more risky for police state purposes, a PRISM system that requires at least corporate legal review for specific individuals, or a system that would tap into all Internet traffic?
Now, which of those have we known about for a longer time?
I have some doubts about us not going to war had there been no terrorist attack. Perhaps it would have been in a different country or continent, but there has been military action under every administration since Eisenhower. I have this sneaky suspicion that the war in Iraq would have happened regardless of any terrorist attack. I would even go as far as to say that the war in Iraq would have happened under a hypothetical Gore administration.
"So out of all the things the government does protecting its citizens seems like something that will always be "worth the money"."
Assuming, of course, that this program has accomplished anything. We are still waiting to see what details will be declassified. It is not enough that supporters of the program claim terrorist plots were stopped; we need to know (a) if the program was actually important to stopping those plots and (b) if those plots were realistic to begin with.
And nobody can take you seriously trying to shovel the excessive amount of money spent on anti-terrorism (or, as for Iraq, not on anti-terrorism) into the cost of a terrorist act and then trying to use that as justification for spending money on anti-terrorism. If we spent half the GDP on anti-terrorism after 9/11 you would be claiming 9/11 cost us half the GDP and that therefore justifies spending half the GDP on it. It's circular logic.
Citation needed!
9/11 did indeed have a devastating impact on the economy - because of the very poorly thought out response of the Bush administration.
On the other hand, Norway's response to their worst ever act of terrorism was as follows:
Prime Minister Jens Stoltenberg pledged to do everything to ensure the country's core values were not undermined. "The Norwegian response to violence is more democracy, more openness and greater political participation," he said. (from: http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120724/20363519819/one-ye... )
Do you think the US would be better off today if they adopted such a policy - instead of the Patriot Act?
I was at Sabre (spin-off of American Airlines, owner of Travelocity, creator of travel agency software) at the time, in HR's development group. (Actually that group had been acquired by EDS, but same group, same role, different name on the paycheck) Within a trading day of the attack, they lost 50% in market cap. We went from massive projects to calculate performance based compensation to doing it on a simple spreadsheet. Many lost their jobs, including me.
Homer: [incredulously] A-plus?!? You don't think much of me, do you boy?
Bart: [almost proudly] No sir!
Homer: You know a D turns into a B so easily. You just got greedy.
"[l]ast year, fewer than 300 phone numbers were checked against the database of millions of U.S. phone records gathered daily by the NSA"
>>For future reference I might believe somewhere in the range of 15,000 to 50 million
You think that there are at least 15,000 terrorists/foreign targets of interest that would have any reason to call a US number?
Let's take the Boston Bombers and make a low balling guess that each one of them has called 20 unique numbers in the last 6 month, each of which have in turn again called 20 unique numbers and we are already at 800 numbers under surveillance.
For instance we know some details about the MINARET project which was not the full extent of their spying that:
"Operating between 1967 and 1973, over 5,925 foreigners and 1,690 organizations and US citizens were included on the Project MINARET watch lists. NSA Director, Lew Allen, testified before the Senate Intelligence Committee in 1975 that the NSA had issued over 3,900 reports on the watch-listed Americans." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MINARET
One imagines that with the growth of technology and the growth of the NSAs budget from that time they are able to distractedly increase those numbers.
No Fly List Statistics:
In mid-December 2001, two lists were created: the "No Fly List" of 594 people to be denied air transport, and the "Selectee" list of 365 people who were to be more carefully searched at airports.
By December 2002, the No Fly List held more than 1,000 names.
60 Minutes reported on 8 October 2006 that the news program had obtained a March 2006 copy of the list that contained 44,000 names.
TSA officials said that, as of November 2005, 30,000 people in 2005 had complained that their names were matched to a name on the list via the name matching software used by airlines.
In April 2007, the United States government "terrorist watch list" administered by the Terrorist Screening Center, which is managed principally by the FBI, contained 700,000 records.
A year later, the ACLU estimated the list to have grown to over 1,000,000 names and to be continually expanding.
However, according to Homeland Security secretary Michael Chertoff, in October 2008 the No Fly list contained only 2,500 names, with an additional 16,000 "selectees", who "represent a less specific security threat and receive extra scrutiny, but are allowed to fly."
Here is the lede of the originally linked article:
U.S. spy agency paper says fewer than 300 phone numbers closely scrutinized
WASHINGTON, June 15 (Reuters) - The U.S. government only searched for detailed information on calls involving fewer than 300 specific phone numbers among the millions of raw phone records collected by the National Security Agency in 2012, according to a government paper obtained by Reuters on Saturday.
The unclassified paper was circulated Saturday within the government by U.S. intelligence agencies and apparently is an attempt by spy agencies and the Obama administration to rebut accusations that it overreached in investigating potential militant plots.
The administration has said that even though the NSA, according to top-secret documents made public by former agency contractor Edward Snowden, collects massive amounts of data on message traffic from both U.S. based telephone and internet companies, such data collection is legal, subject to tight controls and does not intrude on the privacy of ordinary Americans.
There are a myriad of other questionable uses that could come from their data set of everything that don't require "close" scrutiny.
Just like how quickly DNS-based website blocking expanded beyond simple and straight-froward "think of the children" child-pornography hunting turns into "decency" enforcement, this NSA data warehousing program could quickly turn unpleasant.
These politicians believe it's worth invading everyone's privacy in order to prevent an attack on American soil. That's insane. A surveillance state is far more of a danger to people than terrorism.
In this way, unhindered surveillance is a lot like torture...sure, you may think it's perfectly justified when you just know that Alice is a bad person. But when the dragnet brings in many non-guilty people, it's not just about whether it's ethical to torture/warantlessly-spy on someone (guilty or innocent), it's also about whether you're actually accomplishing anything by bringing in all this irrelevant noise.
So that's why 300 closely-inspected people (plus their network, but to a limited degree) seems reasonable...the NSA has finite resources and finite analysts and can only conjure up finite investigations. Call me naive, but I think it's possible that a good chunk of NSA staffers believe their main role is to protect the nation from evil threats...(just like most military staff joined for the "good of country", initially) and if any of them are half-wise, they'd probably realize that wantonly spying for the hell of it doesn't get them promotions nor serves their country...the NSA is still a bureaucracy, after all.
Of course, that doesn't mean that the NSA won't evolve the technology to the point that thoroughly analyzing someone's network and extended network is trivial...and, that all the good-hearted idealists who work for them don't see the true nature of their work, due to the layer of technology and bureaucracy...but...we know of the current controversy because Snowden was able to walk out undetected with the files in a USB drive. So we're not there yet, so hence, it's possible this report is legit.