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Comment by eropple | Hacker News Reader

> Oh, please, not this outdated crap. As long as you don't choose a particularly hostile machine, nowadays GNU Linux distros don't require almost any manual driver installation, and even restricted drivers can be installed with a couple of clicks.

That a user is expected to know what restricted drivers are--that the user is expected to know what drivers are--is the core of the problem.

When my mom turns on her Mac, she is never bothered by that.

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You're comparing a pre-configured out of the box computer with a computer that you are configuring yourself.

There are companies who sell Ubuntu computer pre configured with drivers etc installed. System76 for example.

>There are companies who sell Ubuntu computer pre configured with drivers etc installed. System76 for example.

Why should Linux be compared as "pre-installed"?

Even a plain user can install OS X himself. And then upgrade it himself.

Also, what happens to the pre-installed Linux after 2 years? When the user needs to do some multimedia work? Does it play Netflix fine? Does Flash works ok in major browsers? What happens when he installs some new gizmo which doesn't have a Linux driver?

Never done as OS X install, but I wouldn't say the install/upgrade process is any more difficult than a Windows install.

Flash and Netflix have always worked ok for me, but YMMV I guess.

You will have a smaller selection of software, but that is more a function of marketshare than the OS being open source.

It's actually easier, unless you're trying to do a clean install.

For some weird reason Apple made it utterly difficult to be able to make a clean install.

>For some weird reason Apple made it utterly difficult to be able to make a clean install.

Huh? I've made several clean installs. What's difficult about them?

The only "difficult" part is to copy the DMG to your USB or DVD media. Even that is like 3 steps you have to follow.

Apart from that it's exactly the same procedure as upgrading. Next, next, some preferences, done.

That's the difficult part, not for me, but for the vast majority of people who don't even know what a DMG is.

So just hold Command-R and boot into Internet Recovery. No disk required.

Yeah, I know that. The vast majority of people don't.

So, I've love to know how you make Netflix working on Linux, seeing as how it requires Silverlight.

(and no, the netflix-desktop hack doesn't count, because it plays choppy, and doesn't work in a window)

A pre-installed linux machine is one that will have no driver issues. So that same user can happily install linux themselves with no fuss.

Does Flash works ok in major browsers?

Curious argument, given that Apple is trying to kill flash.

What happens when he installs some new gizmo which doesn't have a Linux driver?

The same thing that happens when that new gizmo doesn't have an OSX driver.

>Curious argument, given that Apple is trying to kill flash.

Nothing curious about it. I'd like to see Flash killed myself. But when I need it, I need it, and on OS X or Windows I can install and use it in all major browsers, officially supported by Adobe. On Linux they have called it quites.

>The same thing that happens when that new gizmo doesn't have an OSX driver.

Only the second case happens far less often, whereas the first is the norm, especially for any multimedia etc work.

whereas the first is the norm

You mustn't have used linux in quite some time. It is not 'the norm' for things to have no linux drivers these days, unless you're using bleeding edge hardware. Yes, you'll run into more driver issues if you're using a philosophically-restricted version of linux like Debian, but for the most part, stuff just works these days.

especially for any multimedia etc work

Tell me, how well does OSX do with the latest nvidia and AMD graphics cards? Linux does a decent job of them, though the bleeding edge ones usually suck (especially on AMD, though there are proprietary drivers). If they're not latest-gen, then they definitely work fine. Linux supports a much wider variety of 'multimedia' gizmos than OSX does.

I mean, nvidia offers drivers for Solaris for download and yet not any for OSX.

Or were you just picking and choosing to make OSX sound better? If we're talking about stuff people like to use, then GPUs are far more popular than ADC cards (of which there's plenty of linux support anyway).

> Even a plain user can install OS X himself. And then upgrade it himself.

And struggle with drivers, too. I bet, OS X still uses them, not magic pixie dust, to work with hardware. So, if you use hardware except for pre-configured one (i.e. one having drivers pre-bundled with OS), you have to figure out what drivers are and where to get them (if they exist).

>And struggle with drivers, too. I bet, OS X still uses them, not magic pixie dust, to work with hardware.

It uses a magic pixie dust system called "GUI installer". Click, next, done.

It's not the figuring out "where to get them" that's the hard part -- even my dad knows how to Google for them. It's the installation ease, vs half-finished instructions about "make" and "tar.gz" and configuring.

You clearly have no fucking idea what you're talking about. Most drivers in Ubuntu (and other distros) are pre-installed; but even the restricted drivers are completely installed with GUIs. You don't even need to "Google for them", since Linux has had for a long time this thing called "repositories", which come with thousands of software packages, including drivers.

A popup appears, you click it, a GUI installer lets you install them with a couple of clicks more.

Here's a nice picture for you: https://lh3.ggpht.com/_afk-Egip2qY/TAPrR7PwjKI/AAAAAAAADI8/3...

Why would I bother buying a System76 computer? The point of Linux to consumers isn't "freedom", it's "free". As in, zero-cost. You install it on what you already have. It sucks at doing that.

Restricted drivers. Shitty iDevice support. A mass of stupid UX decisions that are kicked down to the user to deal with. I keep a Linux desktop because I am knowledgeable enough to deal with the issues that arise (like my Xorg getting inexplicably hosed two weeks ago, that was cool). Expecting normals to ever, ever waste their time with it is silliness.

Huh? You can probably install Linux on more things than any other OS.

And then get the raft of restricted drivers questions, the assorted breakages...

The only restricted driver I have ever installed is Nvidia, which is completely unnecessary unless you are playing modern 3D games or doing GPGPU development (as I was).

http://netbsd.org/ :)

No computer lasts forever. So whenever the time comes to buy the next computer, whether for ourselves or for our relatives, we should choose Linux-friendly hardware.

As for poor iOS device support, that is hardly the fault of Linux developers, since the protocol between iOS and iTunes is proprietary.

Or I'll just buy a Mac, which I do. I'll spend a grand on an Air for a relative so they aren't asking me either how to disinfect their machines or why their applications don't make sense. And regarding iOS: it is entirely the Linux community's fault. Consumers don't care that it's hard. Consumers expect it because everyone else has it.

Users aren't developers. Users don't care about freedom. Users care that their shit works. If it doesn't, it's not the user's fault.

> That a user is expected to know what restricted drivers are--that the user is expected to know what drivers are--is the core of the problem.

That wasn't true at all the last time I did an Ubuntu installation. The process went to great pains to give plain-language explanations of any choices required by the user.

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/GraphicalInstall

Not shown in those images, but it even managed to get proprietary video drivers happening without ever mentioning the phrase "restricted driver".

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