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Comment by sneak | Hacker News Reader

Keep paying US taxes and voting. That should work.

(But seriously. It's time. Pack your belongings and leave. Vote with your tax dollars, please.)

I enjoy these type of comments. They mostly come from Americans who have never looked into the requirements to "leave" legally. It turns out the rest of the world has immigration laws that are just as strict or more strict than America's so unless you're young and you're filthy rich, in a very specialized field that country needs, or ridiculously good looking you're probably not welcome in country X.

Exactly this. If you think it's so simple to emigrate from the US, go ahead and try. I'm sure it wouldn't be too onerous for the types that frequent HN, but for the 99.9% of the population that's less affluent and less technically skilled, you're stuck here.

I did it five years ago, to Germany. No problem, you just need a job offer. It has to be mildly specialized to justify hiring you over a local, but this is a very loose requirement that's easy to bend if your employer so desires.

Germany also has no shortage of relatively unskilled Turkish immigrants who are simply working at restaurants.

I did, and it was.

Also, I was speaking to HN when I suggested it.

Please keep your comments relevant and productive. A snarky "this" doesn't add a lot to the discussion, especially when your silly claim is exactly at odds with reality.

Harper's magazine gave a detailed and amusing guide on "Electing to Leave" the US after Bush's reelection. It covers everything from emigrating to Canada to founding your own micronation.

I finally found a copy here: http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1103-29.htm

Good lord! Moving to Canada?

I grew up in Canada and the amount of political apathy there is astounding. The US might have a lot of crappy laws and politicians, but Americans seem much more politically involved than.

I emigrated five years ago. It's tough, no fuckin' foolin'.

The alternative is to go to bed every night knowing that a double-digit percentage of your value and productivity that day went to fund building bombs and buying and installing fiber splitters.

I just couldn't do it any longer.

FWIW, I have none of those circumstances you describe, and it was relatively easy, practically speaking— and I moved to Germany, one of the best places on Earth to live. The hard part was leaving my job, family, friends, and girlfriend behind on a different hemisphere.

I assume you got your national ID card and register at the police station every time you move.

You think the US doesn't do this? They don't make you register when you move because they'll update their databases when you file your taxes.

I've never registered anywhere and I have moved a lot. In the states we have at least 20 million undocumented. In Germany you legally have to report someone that doesn't have an ID card.

You don't have a social security card or drivers license? You don't file taxes? You don't have to register anywhere because they don't need that. They update all that kind of information when you file taxes.

>You don't have to register anywhere because they don't need that.

That is not a very good argument. Why do the Germans need you to register at the local police station?

Convenience. The reason you have to register is because you moving somewhere puts some level of strain on that community. This registration gives them a chance to get a handle on city migrations. They do the same thing in Switzerland. I don't remember who, but a very rich man was denied the ability to move to some low population city because they couldn't figure out what they would do with his tax money (warning, I've not verified this actually happened but I imagine it could).

The national ID card is only for citizens; I am not a German citizen.

Registering with the police when you move is standard practice with all countries, USA included - you are required to give your SSN to every single DMV now to receive your state ID card/driver's license. They are available in every police cruiser. Are we going to split hairs over which agency runs the server the laptops in the police cars get to query?

I'm sure many weak and cowardly people from the American Revolution said the same thing. It may seem hopeless but people (not just Americans) need to stand up put their governments in check. We live in a very unique time and have unique challenges that people in the past did not have to face, but that doesn't mean things are hopeless. Governments go through phases of corruption and abuse of power, it is up to citizens to put them back in balance.

People from the American Revolution took up arms, and many of them died. Are you ready to do that? I'm not. If not then leavings probably a more realistic option. Call me a coward if you like, but I've already escaped. How many people have joined your militia so far?

Leave where? Everyone always says that, but where would be better (mainly in terms of civil liberties)?

Yeah, leaving doesn't work. The solution is sadly not that simple.

But neither does voting. How could voting work when the public is not even suppose to be aware of this sort of thing? This sort of secrecy is incompatible with democracy. Without being able to make an informed decision the best you can do is vote for the candidate that assures you that they will have a transparent administration.... oh wait.

Yes, it works great. I know because I tried it.

Leaving works for individuals fortunate enough to be in a position where it is feasible. Unfortunately it is not a solution that can be applied across the board. Even assuming every concerned American had the means to leave, such a mass exodus of Americans would surely cause concern in any country they might wish to flee too.

Only the innovators need emigrate for the plan to work, fortunately.

Canada? I say this as a Canadian who's aware of our own issues...

Leave to the smaller country. Like Saint Lucie, for example. Any smaller in size and as result less economically/technologically developed country where technology is in bare use, not to mention in broad use by country's government. Ultimately, there won't be a rock or an inch of earth left without some satellite taking high-res 60 stills per second and some sort of sonic device taking 3-d snapshots of a sound-field. But before then, hopefully our generation will be dead.

Earth is truly become Orwellian's nightmare. Now I understand why Musk said we need to go to Mars; otherwise we extinct.

I can't speak to Saint Lucie specifically, but I always wonder the same thing when someone mentions a specific country: are they speaking to rights afforded to everyone who comes in, or just citizens? How long until one is made whole in that country?

A lot of places are better in terms of civil liberties. Most of western Europe (though stear clear of the UK).

That worked so well for Anwar al-Awlaki.

Well, you might want to avoid 3rd world shit holes, and joining terrorist groups.

Uh, you realize leaving doesn't change your tax situation, right? You still have to file every year and you still may be liable for taxes. Also, if you live in a "tax heaven" then you have to report any bank account you have signing authority over (including any pension, etc.). So don't plan on being a stock trader in your new country, that's not going to happen. Don't plan on having a bank account with any non-international bank because they won't take americans.

BTW, the US is the only country in the world to behave this way (well, perhaps NK but that's not exactly a favorable comparison, is it).

Can't vote with your tax dollars unless you renounce your citizenship. And that feels like abdicating responsibility to me.

The Noble American Tradition of Tax Resistance:

http://www.berkeleydailyplanet.com/issue/2008-04-11/article/...

That's not true in practice. You always need to file taxes to the US no matter where you live, but you only pay to the US if you paid less overseas (you pay the difference, you don't double pay). Almost any county you'd want to live in (except tax havens) will have higher taxes than the US.

I doubt that. There are plenty of places in Asia or Latin America that you would probably have a lower tax bill in.

You have to file taxes for 5-10 years even if you renounce your citizenship.

How the hell does that work? How do they claim to have authority over you once you are no longer a citizen?

I can't find where I thought read that, so I'm probably wrong.

Authority is the ability to execute on that authority and the USA has plenty of execution ability.

In practice, it's how extradition works for non-citizens who never set foot inside the USA, or bank account freezes for people who don't live in the USA.

Not true. Renouncement does substantially restrict your ability to re-enter the US, however.

http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/Expat...

The rule you are talking about applied only to expatriation between 2004-2008 and then only if you spent more than 30 days per year in the US after relinquishing citizenship.

Only if they decide you did so for tax reasons (which is just a formula they apply to your earnings and assets. hint: if you're going this route, do it fast as these numbers drop every year).

False.

http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/Forei...

My line 14 has been zero for several years. I am a US-born American citizen.

That's only because Germany has some of the highest taxes in the world (can be upwards of 50%). Try moving to Lichtenstein (~10% income tax) and see how long you don't pay taxes.

No, I never work in Germany.

Any suggestions, where to go?

Come over to Australia!

Do a search on first world countries. Most of them will be fine.

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