Fitbit for Dogs
whistle.com
whistle.com
Here's the secret to health and exercise: you have to want to do it. Another $100 device to tell you "you're still not doing the thing you said you want to do but that you're not making time for" if it's not something you want to do. I run and love to do it. Here's how I know I'm different from other people this way: when I started running a lot (about 6 years ago) I would ask friends if they wanted to go for a run and they would say "no." I wanted to get fit, but I also wanted to run. I know people who ask "how can I run more?" and I ask "well, do you enjoy running?" and usually they say they don't. I don't tell them they need to buy different shoes or gadgets to try to coerce them into doing it, I suggest they look at other kinds of activities that will fulfill them and try to incorporate that into their life.
I believe too many people confuse fitness with the goal of exercise. Happiness should be the goal. It's fair (and probably right) to say fitness will bring happiness, but it's important to keep those in perspective and realize that if exercise (a means to fitness) isn't bringing happiness, then maybe the exercise should change.
Lastly - I have a small ax to grind over people getting pets who aren't prepared to give the pets the attention they need to be happy. Pets need a lot of attention and activity - they express very clearly when they aren't getting enough if you pay attention. And you can calibrate the type of dog that might suit your lifestyle before you get one.
Sorry to rant over problems with fitness and pet ownership that I feel that a product like this brings up - the product itself may be totally fine and I'll probably get downvoted for saying some of this. Clearly there's somewhat of a need for a product like this.
While I generally agree, how do you reconcile this with the thousands of dogs euthanized every day in kill shelters because no one will take them?
That being said, I would rather euthanize a dog than put it in a home or half-a-home where it isn't cared for in the way it should be. I would rather it not suffer at all, than for it to be ignored, not loved, or not looked after.
I don't think this post has ANYTHING to do with people who aren't prepared to take car of their pets. It's just a way that people can track over the lifetime of their dog, activity and health. I've got a 9 year old dog and have had her since she was 1. I wish I could see where she's declined in activity over those years.
Also, she blew out her knee. This might have helped me see a decline in activity and begin to worry about my dog even before she began to show a limp.
Interesting! But isn't our natural tendency to be lazy, why would anyone prefer to stress themselves rather than sit infront of TV? Shouldn't we just continue running, irrespective of whether we enjoy it or not in the beginning, until we start enjoying it?
The human condition also necessitates expression, realization, aspiration, etc. In many cases, sitting on a couch will bring the most instantaneous pleasure, but it is ultimately empty and ephemeral. Things that are difficult, though instantaneously distressing, are more likely to be fulfilling in the long term.
I just see a lot more people who these don't do anything for than those that they do, and I think the device has little-to-nothing to do with the outcome. A MUCH better investment would be to join a group (many are free, many cost less than the devices).
Back to the pet thing, I think you have to want to care for the pet and pay attention to its behavior and needs. This looks like a neat / fine device, but I'd probably sooner make one of the DIY "Cooper the Photographer Cat" cameras (which incidentally run half the cost of the whistle: http://www.mr-lee-catcam.de/pe_cc_o1_en.htm)
My dog has tons of energy and potential to exercise, but usually the problem is that I don't have the energy or time to take him outside.
I suspect that a major benefit of this product will be that it transforms owners' lifestyles, encouraging them to be more active and take breaks from being inside and/or online when necessary.
Yes, it's yuppie, but as with hiring housekeepers, it makes so many 'problems' go away.
My dogs love going to play with other dogs, toys, pools, fountains, and trained handlers, and they love coming home to play and run. They get to socialize and I still get a lot of quality time with them.
Fitbit works because you can correlate the data to your personal well being. Unless this device magically discerns the dog's well being I don't see how it provides any actionable statistics.
Here's what I'll get:
1. I pay a dog walker to exercise my dog every-day for 1 hour. I want to make sure he is actively walking and not just sitting around the park.
2. Dog Sleep: I want to keep a healthy sleep vs activity percentage.
I think this is great. I love this trend of constantly tracking vs going to the vet every 6 months to find out whats wrong.
You don't need a device, you need to walk your own dog and bond with him/her.
This is like having kids, hiring a full time nanny and then saying you're a great parent because you have a camera on her to make sure she's nice to them whilst she's raising your children.
I'm also interested in how you plan on acting upon this new knowledge about your dog's sleeping habits.
"Uber for dogs".
DAE ...?
EDIT: FFS, I hate this world: http://www.prweb.com/releases/2013/4/prweb10677391.htm.
What is the healthy ratio? Are you a veterinarian?
1. Detecting an abrupt change in sleep patterns in humans is useful.
2. Dogs are not humans.
Ergo: Detecting an abrupt change in sleep patters in dogs is useful.
Anthropomorphizing dogs is terrible. It is certainly one of the biggest causes for behavior problems in dogs.
Maybe it is because I have only ever had dogs that were bred for protection but I do not want to think about what my dogs sleep patterns are/were. Does whistle monitor for sounds so that I can disregard the change in sleeping pattern due to a siren? Foot traffic on the sidewalk? Thunder?
Also, just because X might be optimal for a pet doesn't mean that you have to do it. There's always something more you can do for your pet, but perfection is never possible.
And also, your incredible examples of confounding variables are not insurmountable, since sleeping patterns are successfully measured in humans even in suboptimal scenarios. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good!
Do you wake up when there's an ambulance passing by while you're sleeping?
What if you change your statements to:
1) Detecting an abrupt change in sleep patterns in mammals is useful. 2) Dogs are mammals.
Therefore, detecting an abrupt change in sleep patterns in dogs is useful.
No I do not. This is why dogs have been used as sentries for thousands of years.
Just as humans, dogs go through sleep phases and even though humans have longer sleep phases; dogs have a REM phase. Once dogs get to the REM phase they're in a deep stage of sleep and the sound of an ambulance or foot traffic will not wake them up as easily as you think.
I've seen it hundreds of times throughout different breeds of dogs. I used to work part time for a vet when I was a teenager.
1. Compare it to other similar dogs.
2. Show the stats to the veterinarian to get more input.
Using #1 and #2 should be sufficient.
1) You have a lifetime of data on your dog (and with further improvements to the device I'm sure you'll get heart rate as well as movement). This is awesome, and here's why. My dog blew her knee out. She got a lot less exercise and is finally recovering. But how can I SHOW myself that she's running better other than this vague feeling I get as her owner. I can't, but with this device I could.
2) I can compare Sophie to other dogs her age, and possibly with help see that she's not running as much. That could have potentially alerted me to her knee issue (which is something you can NEVER learn about too early).
3) I can watch what she's doing no matter where she goes or who's watching her. I get data on her. This also has implications about lost dogs and your dog getting out of the yard (but for most attentive owners that isn't a problem).
I think you are attempting to argue away the value of this data, and I for one completely disagree. Sure I want more data, possibly gps/heart rate monitor. But I'll support someone who is taking a step in the right direction.
I used to have a dog with hip problems. As her hip got worse she ran more, not less. Why? Because it took her longer. Sure, it was lower speed, and she galloped weird, but Whistle would still track that as an increase in running! As a converse, as she got better the time duration of her running fell, but her intensity and speed increased. Again, giving you the wrong idea via Whistle data.
As I said before, Whistle is the Moves app for Dogs. I suggest you download that app, see the data you get from it, and if you would like that for your dog then go for it. Just remember you're paying $100 for the same functionality provided by a free app.
Or you can do next to nothing with them for a month and then feel really good by doing just a bit more every week for 4 weeks and seeing a nice line going up and get some badges or whatnot for it.
I think a case can be made that if you seriously think about buying one of these, you probably already know you should spend more time and attention on your dog.
Hurt? That's not physically possible... It sure as hell isn't going to bite my dog.
> I used to have a dog with hip problems. As her hip got worse she ran more, not less. Why? Because it took her longer. Sure, it was lower speed, and she galloped weird, but Whistle would still track that as an increase in running! As a converse, as she got better the time duration of her running fell, but her intensity and speed increased. Again, giving you the wrong idea via Whistle data.
Where's your data to back this claim up? I kid, I kid, but seriously don't you think these are changes that this device would detect, and if properly programmed point out to the user as abnormal? Now there's nothing to stop their algorithm from sucking and they could say "great job on walking your hurt dog for 27 miles this weekend on a camping trip dude. Gold star! (I'm assuming this is what you mean by hurt, not to be bitten) But, you'd hope that as the device matures they'd discover these sorts of things and look for them.
> As I said before, Whistle is the Moves app for Dogs. I suggest you download that app, see the data you get from it, and if you would like that for your dog then go for it. Just remember you're paying $100 for the same functionality provided by a free app.
I'm sorry my dog lost his smart phone last week so I'd have to buy him a new one... oh oh oh, I hear I could spend 100 bucks and get this same information in a nice neat little package that clips onto their collar!
The point of all this is that this device IS superfluous, I don't need any of this data. It falls squarely into the WANT category. Just like the fitbit (don't need that to work out either). It's a want kinda like say... a galaxy s4 (or iPhone 5), second laptop, extra pairs of shoes, raspberry pi, a new game, a new... you get the picture. No one is going to put this in the "You literally have to get one of these or your dog will die" category.
But you can't argue that a collection of data from all 10+ years is something that you ALREADY have . I say that because I like data. I like seeing graphs of activity, and being able to digest information in a meaningful manner. And it's not like you are going to make something that collects said data for cheaper than 100 bucks and create instructions/send it to me...
What I will say is that this device is not a substitute for caring for and watching your dog. Sure it'll give you pretty data, but at the end of the day they need love and attention more than anything else (which I think we can both agree on).
Who doesn't love more data on everyday things anyway? This seems really cool.
I.E. I downloaded a sleep app and very much enjoy seeing how I've slept over the past few weeks. Also thanks to one of the other commentators I'm going to download move and check that data out.
Do you know of any place I can get at my data from Google to see what my internet footprint looks like?
Google's Monthly account activity emails available: https://support.google.com/accounts/answer/2478305?hl=en
Shows how many searches on has made, YouTube video watches, and other stuff. Pretty cool!
I have 2 chocolate labs, and immediately was thinking how amazing this is as one is getting older - however, I'd like to think I am an 'attentive' pet owner (if not over-attentive by my wife's standards).
Your point about what the device can/can't discern is important. That is where I hope to see this go. Unfortunately for pet owners, your dog often doesn't communicate with you very well regarding their health. Sure, weight is relatively easy to discern, as are superficial wounds. But infections, arthritis, skin/coat health - all could be studied to give an owner insight if it is time to visit the vet. Ala preventative medicine.
Too many times an unusual throw up, limp, sleepless night can cause a vet trip and be nothing, but even slight trends could tell you a lot about the dogs health.
It's clear when something is way off kilter, such as the dog peeing every five minutes or never getting off the couch, but by then you know the animal is acutely suffering.
My wife can tell me if her neck hurts. If she says it five times in a month, I can tell her that she may want to make an appointment with a doctor or see what has changed about her work/home environment.
It would be nice if I could get the same sort of signal for my dog. (And be able to tell my vet yes/no when they ask if anything has changed.)
* If you are attentive and interested in your pet this device tells you nothing new.
Attentive and interested does not equate to "has a spreadsheet tracking their pet's activity". This device, just like Fitbit, is a personal (extra-personal, in this case) data collector. To say that tells you "nothing new" applies just as well to Fitbit.
* Fitbit works because you can correlate the data to your personal well being. Unless this device magically discerns the dog's well being I don't see how it provides any actionable statistics.
I'm not really sure what it means to correlate Fitbit to your "personal well being". I'm assuming you mean things like weight, resting heart rate, etc. Anyone who has spent much time with dog owners can tell you that managing your pet's weight can be as much trouble as managing your own.
I don't use Fitbit, but I track fitness data in other ways using some ad hoc tools. There are differing perspectives on the benefits of personal data logging, but one of the more common is that it increases visibility in to your real patterns as opposed to your perceived patterns. In other words, the data doesn't lie. The data becomes a source of accountability, and even motivation. It's really hard not to look at the data and thing about obtaining a "high score".
Pets are reliant on humans for their fitness needs. In the wild, a dog gets all the fitness it needs, because it has to chase down every meal. This puts the responsibility of wellness on the human, and these data collection tools provide the same benefits as they do for humans.
Whistle Tracks:
Type of Activity
Duration of Activity
Whether or not the user holding the iPhone w/ Whistle app is near their dog wearing the Whistle (I'm assuming that's how it tracks who the dog is with)
Speed of activity
Distance of activity
Calories burned
Type of Sleep
etc. etc.
So unless you're simply tracking "My dog ran for 2 hours at 3pm" in a spreadsheet, I don't see how this helps you. All those nice little statistics people track using a Fitbit or other tools are not provided here.
So to re-iterate (and not harping on you bradleyland, just for the benefit of the majority): If you are a attentive and interested dog owner you probably already know the activity and duration of your pet. Intensity of said activity would be quite useful, no doubt. But that is not provided by Whistle. Location of said activity would be useful. But that is not provided by Whistle. Distance traveled during said activity would be useful. But that is not provided by Whistle.
If there was, say, a Whistle with GPS, accelerometer, heart beat monitor, etc. (possibly something that measures skin excretions?) it would be fairly useful. This is not that device.
edit: Downvote brigade is out today! I would appreciate it if you would let me know how I am wrong instead of simply voting me down. At the very least it prevents me from looking like an idiot and allows me to retract/modify my statements
edit edit: On further reflection, this could create some false data. A dog chasing it's tail for 2 hours in a kennel could be recorded as meaningful exercise ("running for 2 hours" according to the Whistle), leading you to make decisions off bad data ("I have no idea why she is so hyperactive, she get's plenty of excercise!"). Maybe. Just a thought.
edit edit edit: A nice analogy... Whistle is the Moves app for Dogs. Except it costs $100 more and requires extra hardware.
I get what you're saying, but I think we disagree on just how much utility even that limited data provides. The market will decide, but I think pet owners are just crazy enough to care about this simplistic data.
I work out every day, but I still wear my Bodymedia armband. I already know that my caloric burn was high yesterday, and I still get value from knowing how high.
Wealthy pet owners will spend an irrational amount of money on their dogs in almost the same way that wealthy parents will spend anything on their kids.
I don't own a dog, but every person I've spoken to who does has told me that this is awesome and $99 is pretty small relative to what they spend on their pet. (Granted, most of these people have a reasonable disposable income that they're willing to spend on their dog.)
So I'd really love it if the people commenting would disclose whether they own a pet or not. I suspect a lot of the skepticism is from people who don't own pets.
I actually happen to have a candidate. An older Deerhound with a nervous disposition (odd for deerhounds) and some weight problems, maybe she's inactive? If we could monitor here base line activity level, then see what happens if we put her on diet food. That could be useful information. We need a diet food that doesn't malnourished her.
It's not being inattentive when you have 6 dogs and a life and you're not the sole source of activity for your dogs.
http://thenextweb.com/insider/2013/02/04/airbnb-for-dogs-rov...
"It's a Uber for dogs." http://www.prweb.com/releases/2013/4/prweb10677391.htm
That being said, I would buy a similar/simpler device for my cat–not because I give a damn if my cat how many steps it takes but because I want to know where it goes all day (on a map).
I don't need to know where my teen is at all times but if I can reduce (a) her chances of dying and (b) my car insurance bill, sweet.
[1] http://www.wsoctv.com/news/news/local/aaa-testing-device-tra...
How the hell does it do that? Before I saw the founders comment here on HN I thought this was an elaborate ruse because of this "feature."
Definitely seems like this is solving a non-problem
There's never been a nice, simple way to setup wifi from a small device before.
The trick they are using here is to use the Bluetooth connection to setup the wifi. It's not a bad approach (in fact, they like it so much they're trying to patent it).
But TI recently came out with the CC3000, a wifi chip that can grab the setup information on its own (well, with the help of a smartphone app).
This avoids the hassles of managing two different 2.4GHz wireless systems on a small device.
I think that's where the future of wifi setup is heading.
At least that's what it appeared to be doing when I set it up....
I think the pitch should be "turn your terrier into a tamagotchi"
Or if an uncommon spike of activity happens in the middle of the day, you may want to check in at home.
I've checked with a webcam. Almost always sleeping.
I think we broke it down to like:
90% sleeping 5% chewing on stuff 5% sitting there doing nothing but awake
It really prevents him from getting into too much trouble while we're away, but eventually when he's less "puppy" (he's currently 9 months), we'll slowly start letting him roam the house/yard for short periods while we're gone, working our way up to a full work day.
Fear not though, when we're home he's with us, and he always gets about 1-2 hours of exercise as well as a trip to our local dog park daily.
When he was a pup, we crated him. Never liked coming home to find destroyed property. We started by kenneling him in a bedroom, then letting him have the bedroom to himself, then more rooms with gates/doors blocking access. The more we trusted him, the more freedom he got. If there were setbacks, we'd restrict his access a bit more. Only took a couple of months.
Now with small dogs I have noticed similar, I get five minutes of fame. Visitors get a few more minutes than I, afterward its like ho-hum.
Don't assume dogs limited in their domain, even those confined to runs, have a miserable time. It all comes down to how they are handled and spoken too. Mean people tend to beget mean dogs.
I feel pretty in touch with my dogs since I work from home and provide their exercise...but I could see my wife wanting to see how the horse is doing since it is kept at stable and she can't make it out every day.
Also typically horse people are super rich (tho we are not) and already paying lots and lots on horse care, might be good to explore.
Minor css bug for firefox/win http://imgur.com/wT4nXYS
[1] Obviously the response cannot be to go to the vet for each alert, but instead to take some action at home.
If you are not already aware of your dog's food intake there is already a big problem and a pretty good chance that you are a disinterested owner. Dogs should be fed a certain amount of food each day. The dog's food bowl is not an all fido can eat buffet that is constantly refilled.
I also wonder if the USP for the product should shift to the savings in vet bills or the extension of life.
It seems that before the USP shift you would need some actual research and judging from the answer to "What research supports Whistle's approach?" there is no research to support this proposition.
Also from their site... http://www.whistle.com/support/
"Whistle is supported by veterinary research around activity and behavior as a measure of pet health from leading academic institutions such as the University of California at Davis, North Carolina State University, and the University of Pennsylvania. We work closely with the veterinary community to bring new data to this research across a much broader population of dogs."
Also from their site? That is not an "also" that is what I was referring to. You read that paragraph and concluded there must be research supporting this? When I read that paragraph the first thing that I was "where are the citations?"
On top of that, just add features that trains the dog for you. Like automatic "heel" commands or making sure the dog doesn't crawl onto the couch and leave dog hair all over it while you are out of the house.
Use geofencing to make sure the dog can't wonder past a certain distance from the house without hearing a dog whistle. It would be like a reprogrammable electric fence without all the cost of burying wires in the yard and worrying about the wire getting cut by accident and the dog running away. Add geolocation so I can have a "Where is my dog?" feature, just like I can already find my iPhone.
But in all seriousness this looks great. My wife and I both use Fitbit and have joked about attaching it to our dog's collar to see how active he is.
The reason I posted this was that I love the concept of tracking the amount exercise "Toodles" is getting to see how it affects her mood. The device looks like it's on a big dog, and I'm wondering how it will look on a small/medium size dog as well.
I think people forget how much a dog's mood is affected by their walking time - playing is all well and good but there is something primal for a dog about walking, especially walking with intent/purpose.
I think with big dogs it's fine to just exhaust them and they'll loll about and doze but with a small dog if you push it too far you just get a grumpy git.
We have a trainer who has described him as being the most expressed terrier she has ever come across (lucky us!) and she said the most effective way to absorb his mental and physical energy is to start agility - which we've always wanted to do but he only turned 2 last week and the local club have that as their minimum age.
I'm sure this has a market, but taking your dog for a walk and getting regular check-ups at the vet seems to work relatively well for most situations.
Build android first, or at the same time, or no thanks.
You can very well spend time with your dog, and still enjoy the metrics that this thing will give you.
But say once every 30 minutes, they would all power up, grab the GPS data, fire off an SMS message with the coordinates, then power back down again.
It's not perfect, but it's a good compromise.