Show HN: A high performance airplane for the price of a luxury car | Hacker News Reader

Show HN: A high performance airplane for the price of a luxury car

92 pointscarleverett34 comments

The Light Sport Aircraft category was created by the FAA in 2004 with the hopes that it would lead to the first affordable airplanes. By lowering restrictions for LSA’s, it was predicted that planes would be able to sell for around $60,000.

9 years later, none of the big players in the industry have been able to accomplish this. Cessna made its Skycatcher, which was supposed to sell for under $100,000. It launched in 2007 at $110,000, and has since increased its price up to $150,000. Several, better attempts at an affordable LSA have been made since then, but decent planes have struggled to find price points under $80,000. A few are sold in the $60-80k range, but these are “bare-bones” airplanes, and the market has shown little demand for planes not equipped with radios, lights, navigation, iPod jacks, etc… even if they are affordable.

I co-founded a company that has made an airplane with all these amenities and more for $55k. The design has been around for a few years now and comes from a kit-plane manufacturer in the Czech Republic. It is tiny: 250 pounds empty weight, which is small enough to be classified as an ultralight (although its performance takes it way out of ultralight eligibility). It is very strong, capable of carrying 60 pounds of fuel, a 230 pound pilot, and 30 pounds of baggage. Because it’s so small, the performance specs are competitive with the Cessna Skycatcher on just a 50 hp engine. It is very fuel efficient, getting 60 mpg and flying 575 miles on one tank. Radio, GPS navigation, collision avoidance, synthetic flight, lights, and an emergency locator transmitter all come standard on the plane.

I know this isn’t tech news, but I love this website and rarely get to contribute since I’m not a programmer. Here is our website: http://www.skycraftairplanes.com. Please give me your input.

This is truly amazing. This airplane weighs less than one of the most famous and popular gliders, the PW-5 Smyk.

I hope one day to be able to buy one of these to go back and forth from work.

Any plans for a dual seater version? That would be awesome and would totally destroy the high end coupé cars market

A dual seater is in the plans, but the addition power and strength needed will up the price a decent amount. As a complete ballpark figure, a two-seater will be roughly $20k more than the single seater.

Wow - that really is quite impressive. And I think it is "plenty technical" for Hacker News. After all - hacking isn't just about computers per se. This is some pretty solid hardware hacking.

Your "story" is so amazing - half the price of Cessna's attempt at the same thing?!

However, Cessna's variant does have a second seat and a fair bit more load capacity.

Q1) Could one sacrifice some pounds of baggage for a bigger pilot? I'm currently (sadly) ~240lbs.

Q2) Is there a single factor which dominates the huge difference in price? It appears the Cessnas were produced in the US, until they moved production to China - making (apparently) a ~$71k difference in labor cost! But they still are selling for $150k instead of the original target $110k. So is it labor? Materials? Design? Engine? I'm very (hacker) curious!

Q3) You mention the market being uninterested in "bare-bones" planes without radios, lights, navigation, iPod jacks etc. But while the "top tier" of those items are certain to be expensive, the "non-aviation grade" version of most of the sensors, GPS, radios etc have plummeted in cost in the years since the LSA category was created. An in-car GPS unit used to be $500+ minimum - now it is < $100 - with a bigger, brighter, higher resolution display, more CPU and map storage memory and fancy 3D navigation stuff to boot! Altimeter sensors are now basically "freebies" integrated into all sorts of consumer electronics. I find it disappointing (though unsurprising) that the aviation market hasn't pushed harder such that these systems are not such a major cost driver. Do you have any insight into why this is? Or have they really dropped in price, and a system which would have formerly added say, $50,000 to an aircraft now adds "merely $10,000?"

1) Unfortunately not. In airplanes, just as important as how much weight is in the aircraft is where that weight is. 230 lbs is the maximum pilot weight regardless of how much weight is in other parts of the plane.

2) By far, the single biggest factor in the price difference between us and a Cessna is the engine. Twice the horsepower is needed to fly the Skycatcher, but that translates to an engine cost of 3-4 times our engine. Historically speaking, engines have always been the price hog that keeps airplanes so expensive.

3) You are right on! This is a big reason why we are able to offer such good instrumentation while keeping our price down - the technology is so much better and cheaper than it was 10 years ago. These days entire airplanes are being run off of iPads with a couple hundred bucks of apps downloaded to them. I will say, the entire concept of "aviation grade" seems to be abused a lot in the aviation industry. I think airplane component manufacturers have gotten away with charging outrageous premiums for their products because of their perceived complexity. LSA has helped out a lot in lifting this veil.

I think the aviation industry kind of sees us as a great case study in the direction of the market. If we succeed, the competition for more affordable airplanes will finally start heating up, and we'll start getting a slew of really impressive low cost airplanes. I genuinely can't wait. Flying is the coolest thing humans do besides explore space, and 100+ years since the invention of the airplane, you'd think a lot more people would be flying by now.

Wow - I wonder if it would be possible to practically use this to commute to / from work every day.

I live a 5 minute drive from a tiny airport and it would be about a 30 minute flight to Palo Alto...if this was possible it would allow us to live further away....maybe even somewhere where home ownership is possible!

Exactly! Read my comment below on this.

I have a question, which admittedly is based on my experience with paper airplanes. I have noticed that tiny paper airplanes look cool, but are difficult to fly. When I was a kid, I remember making a paper airplane out of a giant piece of butcher paper. I launched it out of my second floor window, expecting it to soar all the way to the street. It rather pathetically pinwheeled to the ground. It seems that, with paper airplanes at least, the most stable designs are in some middle size range.

Is this tiny plane less stable than more traditional "small planes" like Cessnas? I love the concept of this plane, but is it actually a good first plane for new pilots?

Fortunately, there is little relationship between the flight characteristics of paper airplanes vs. actual airplanes. Stability is achieved in design aspects of the plane. For instance, dihedral wings (upward angled) are a big factor in stability since they cause the airplane to want to level out when it rolls. This is positive stability, vs. negative stability, which is when the plane wants to roll more once it begins rolling.

Lighter planes are more easily pushed by the wind, which only really ups your difficulty level during crosswind landings. Pilots will usually have a maximum crosswind they'll allow themselves to land in before resorting to another runway - that speed would be lower on a lighter aircraft.

That is no reason to say that the SD-1 is not suited for beginners however. It has positive stability control and plenty of modern safety features, so it makes a great first plane.

Thank you for such a clear answer. I really hope this takes off, and I wish you well!

Well done on getting this far with your product!

Does the plane allow for a ballistic parachute to be fitted? Such a light aircraft seems like the ideal candidate for this kind of device, and it would help ameliorate fears about safety in such a (relatively) budget machine.

Also, your site seems to be a little slow at the moment. If this makes it to the front page or HN (or http://reddit.com/r/shutupandtakemymoney) it would be a shame for people to find it unresponsive or down - might be worth investing in a faster server, CDN etc...

Thank you!

The ballistic parachute is one of the 2 optional add-ons for our plane - the other being a Mode S Transponder for flight into Class B and C airspace. The ballistic parachute comes with a choice however, since getting one means you won't be able to have an aft baggage compartment. If you get the parachute though, there will be space underneath the seat for a small amount of baggage.

Thanks for the heads up on the slow site, I'll take care of that

Awesome. How many pre-orders do you have?

I, myself, started the course of flying long time ago. I left it because the money, it was expensive for a 16 years old guy :(. My favourite planes those days were Piper PA-11 and the motor glider Grob G 109.

I had the chance on many other planes and gliders, like the Nimbus 3DM but I'm impressed with the prices for this plane. It can be really nice starter for those who enjoy flying.

I'll continue to drive a jalopy and spend my money on something like this.

This makes regular travel to and from the place I want to be (as opposed to need to be, for an income) a real possibility.

P.S. Another person who would be interested in a two-seater. At the same time, it's only fair I note that my own purchase would not be imminent. (Been a rough few years.)

From the perspective of a mechanical engineer, this is amazing. You're squeezing unbelievable performance from such a small engine.

Also, a slightly-larger two-seater would be wonderful for transporting girlfriends/wives. Is that anywhere on the horizon?

/boyfriends/husbands

If a guy building a submarine in his garage is HN worthy then so is this in my book :-)

I don't know anything about planes but as others pointed out, this looks promising. Have you tried reaching out to some media outlets to pick up your story? It is interesting for sure especially considering the price perspective.

Definitely, aviation media has been pretty kind to us so far, I think the aviation community is pretty excited about us:

http://www.flyingmag.com/aircraft/lsasport/skycraft-sd-1-min...

http://www.generalaviationnews.com/2013/05/skycraft-begins-p...

http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/All-News/2013/May/29/Skyc...

That's great! Wouldn't it help to highlight these on your website with a 'In the News' or 'As Featured on' section.

Really neat. I don't know a damn thing about airplanes, but good luck. I think it's quite possible that our dream of "flying cars" will end up being (partially) fulfilled by small computer-controlled airplanes.

That is my hope. I see a big practical use for airplanes like ours in the future for long work commutes. People already drive 2 hours through traffic in some cases to make it to work, just to keep their family in a nice neighborhood. Commuter airplanes would allow people to live basically wherever they wanted and still get to work in a reasonable time. This would require a significant change in infrastructure, but the popularity of an affordable airplane would have to come before that anyways (think Model T to Eisenhower Interstate System).

For me, there is no doubt in my mind that a shift towards more affordable flying is going to happen. If a small startup like us is able to put out a plane as nice as ours for its price, clearly the forces keeping planes expensive are not insurmountable.

Just a question on logistics. If we assume that you aren't waiting on other air traffic, what would you estimate as the time someone parks their car at the airport to the time you're up in the air with the plane?

I'm pretty ignorant to what kind of safety checks and security proceedings a private pilot has to go through. Same thing goes for landing? Is there a lot of setup and teardown that has to be done outside of air time?

Judging by the size of the aircraft I would think you could be up in the air in about 15 minutes after parking your car. Pre-flight check should only take 2-3 minutes on a aircraft of this size. Take a minute for engine run up. The largest amount of time is probably used up taxing to the end of the runway and walking to and from your vehicle.

Yep this is correct. The other variable is that if you're taking advantage of the removable wings, it'll be about 10 minutes to throw those on and take those off before and after flight.

If a pilot weighs 180 pounds, can you carry another 50 pounds of baggage? Or does weight distribution limit baggage to 30 pounds for everyone?

this is awesome, I really like it. I hold a JAR-PPL(A) and the cost of hiring a simple Cessna 152 is just ridiculous (same goes for buying) - bearing in mind that it's technology from about 30-40 years ago... I am amazed by the operational costs of the SD-1. Just out of interest, what fuel does the engine run on? Avgas, Mogas (never really looked into UL)?

It runs on mogas, but avgas can be used if an additive is mixed in. This way if you find yourself needing to land at an airport that only pumps avgas, you're set as long as you have that additive with you in your baggage compartment.

This is awesome! What would be the average cost per-mile to fly this? Considering cost of maintanence, fuel etc.

If you're taking advantage of the removable wings and not renting hanger space, operational costs are $12 an hour (fuel, oil, and engine maintenance included). At the 118 mph cruise speed, that's $0.10 a mile.

link: http://www.skycraftairplanes.com

Isn't this the same as the kit plane already available from Spacek (sdplanes.com)

245lb? Finally a plane I can deadlift.

Seriously, though, these look really cool.

I like the little plane. Looks really nice :)

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