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Comment by aprescott | Hacker News Reader

If the start of this post put you off because it sounds arrogant, please keep reading. It is an intentional setup to highlight the core point, which I think is in this paragraph:

But the environment matters a lot less than the fact that when I get home from work—which is a two hour commute each way (sorry, I can’t afford to live in downtown San Francisco)—I just feel like being mentally incapacitated. Occasionally I have a little spark of brilliance (relative, not absolute) that motivates me to write a short bit of code, but the code is never more than one or two hundred lines. It usually consists of some little trick.

That is: you cannot fight your day-to-day work — long-term — by working on your own stuff, when you get home after already spending 6-7 hours working and thinking in a particular way. The author tagged it "sad" for a reason.

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> you cannot fight your day-to-day work — long-term — by working on your own stuff, when you get home after already spending 6-7 hours working and thinking in a particular way. The author tagged it "sad" for a reason.

That's precisely why this post resonated with me. Even short of literally switching mind sets, I find it tricky to get motivated to code after spending ~8 hours at work (coding). As it stands, I even find myself stressing out over weekends due to not being "productive" enough on side projects.

Of slightly more relevance to the author, having done the 2-hour commute in SV (granted, from SF to Menlo because socially I couldn't stand the latter), I strongly recommend against it. Housing accommodations can be found in SF for a developer's wage, and I would strongly urge anyone and everyone to avoid spending 4 hours of their life each day in transit. It makes a difference.

I think of a 4 hour commute as (at least) a 33% pay cut. Unless you're getting paid to commute.

I wonder if it is possible to construct a sensible tax that punishes commuters.

Not because I think they deserve it or anything, more because people tend to be highly adaptable and commuting (speaking in generalities) stinks.

Edit: I guess various congestion taxes are exactly what I suggest.

It would also likely be an extremely regressive tax so I'm not sure it would ever be sensible. People live in the suburbs because they can afford something that doesn't suck. The ultra poor and the ultra rich live in the city, the rest of us commute. And that's only slightly hyperbolic.

I recommend this book as relevant to your interests: http://www.amazon.com/Walkable-City-Downtown-Save-America/dp...

Speck is kinda acerbic, but if you can get past this, his points are very good.

Are you serious? Your solution to fix commuting is to punish people who may depend on a job that's not in close proximity? Really... I have a job I depend heavily on and to make my life even more burdensome just seems inhumane. Please never get elected to office.

Edit: To be fair, I work 2 days from home, but the idea of taxing people who may have no other option disgusts me. You probably can't even begin to identify with them.

I was quietly thinking out loud. So yes, I was perfectly serious.

If some method of taxation was narrowly burdensome, I probably wouldn't think it was sensible.

But, for instance, maybe there is a way to (relatively objectively) identify businesses that employ lots of people but are less location sensitive. Some mild tax on such a business should not have an enormous impact on the employees (I immediately see an objection to this idea, the cost of maintaining a location already provides similar pressure).

Punitive measures for folks who are already being punished because they ostensibly ALLOWED themselves to be punished??

I would say you are over-analyzing my word choice.

As I noted, congestion taxes have a similar goal (reducing traffic), but less questionable motivations (they generally directly address externalities rather than behavior).

I was coming at it from the perspective of thinking about mechanisms that might be useful to try to shift aggregate group behavior towards something that is better for everybody. I certainly wasn't insisting that it was sensible.

Felt the same way. Is this a perfect example of the sociopath Hugh Macleod apex personality or what?!

If I was pursuing the thought in a way that had negative consequences for other people I could see room to question my motivations and empathy.

As it is, you are basically just shouting at me because you didn't like what crossed my mind.

and here I am dealing with a 6hr commute for what is essentially pocket change (if the recent SF income poll is anything to go by)...

more reason to start looking for a new gig sooner rather than later I guess.

About to start a daily commute from Berkeley to Menlo Park. Am optimistic about 880-South in the morning, and driving seems far faster and more peaceful than the BART -> Shuttle method. But I do mourn the loss of productive time on a daily basis, but can't imagine a better place to live. Even on a wonderful developer salary, I cannot possibly afford a nice apartment for me and my partner in San Francisco or on the peninsula. Especially compared to East Bay's prices...

> Even on a wonderful developer salary, I cannot possibly afford a nice apartment for me and my partner in San Francisco or on the peninsula. Especially compared to East Bay's prices

Ah, yeah. I was unfortunately speaking from the POV of 1-person dwellings with, ahem, somewhat lax standards. I totally empathize with not finding something suitable for 2.

A carpool might be worth looking into, but that said they're not really my cup of tea either (and, less productive than any single BART / train ride). Congrats on the new gig though, hopefully the work will be stimulating enough to offset any other inconvenience :)

I don’t quite follow the logic of driving being “faster”. In my experience, public transportation can be highly productive time for certain activities like reading, while driving is very limited in the activities you can safely do (though I used to have a tape in my car to help me practice singing scales, so there are some safe options).

I've just timed it out for about 45 minutes in the car, and an hour and fifteen for the BART/shuttle combo. I also quite like podcasts, so am all right with having just my ears free while driving.

Berkeley to Menlo Park is only 45 minutes if you leave at the correct time (before 6-7 and after 10am, and 1-3pm or >9pm), and there are no accidents or other delays.

To get there with 95% odds, you often need to allow 70-80 minutes. I guess it depends on how bad being late is.

Timing it to arrive at 0930 is actually really hard; I end up leaving around 0730 to be 99% certain of arriving on time. Sometimes it's an hour early, but sometimes only 15 minutes early.

You've just broken my heart. My timing's basically based on two 9 AM drives that hit traffic/construction, but took no more than 45 minutes.

I start tomorrow.

80 (i.e. along the shore in Berkeley) is really bad quite often, but you could possibly skip most of that. If you can avoid that, it's not too bad, although the 880 parts in Oakland (due to port/construction traffic) can be bad.

Actually live in Oakland near Emeryville. Not sure why I wrote Berkeley, except for misguided attempt at identity obfuscation. But used to live up in Contra Costa county, and the mornings I'd drive into SF-- boy howdy, 580/80 along the coast near University was an absolute disaster.

I wonder if, as "Oakland becomes the new Mission", if we'll see more of the tech giants sending shuttles up to East Bay. I know Google has at least one going to West Oakland, but Facebook does not yet.

Yeah, I have a friend who worked at google who lives at the cannery lofts, and used the west Oakland Bart google shuttle a lot. I still would want my car in case I wanted to work late, or go somewhere other tha directly home.

Another annoying thing about 880 is the trucks and general narrowness. It is technically 45mph but people do 70-80. I hadn't had an accident there, but it kind of sucks vs the rest of 880.

You are aware that a lot of the Oakland/emeryville areas near 30th and such are pretty gangster, right? My friend had a loft there and I kept showing up at her buyer while the cops had the block shut down to serve a high risk warrant.

Yes, a friend's motorcycle was severely damaged last week from someone trying to steal it. He was upstairs in our apartment eating dinner. Nine more months on the lease!

If you're starting at the same Menlo Park company that I work at, for the long term, you may want to consider taking BART down to Fremont and then arranging a ride in a carpool/van-pool over the Dumbarton bridge: there are tons of folks who live in Fremont/Newark/Union City and who wouldn't mind a +1 for carpool lane. Many of them also have kids so they tend to come a bit earlier than others (most folks come in between 9:45 and 10:45).

Also, I've yet to have had a semi-recurring meeting schedule before 11 am (occasionally there are interviews earlier in the morning, however).

That said, irrespective of where in Bay Area you live, Ryan is 100% right: the problem isn't the average commute time (which is very easy to keep under 45 minutes -- this is not LA!), it's the outliers. It's a lot like the JVM: good performance on average but then a Concurrent Mark and Sweep failure happens...

Also, congratulations! I'm on the data/systems infrastructure as opposed to machine learning side (but folks move around quite a bit and a lot of teams do both ML and systems programming), but let me know if you've any questions.

I tried this a few times during a conference--it was stop-and-go hell during rush hour, hope your experience is better.

Does anyone know of advanced software development courses that are practical on a small mobile device screen? I love coursera but it only really works on a laptop or tablet and that's not always convenient when commuting.

BTW, in case you hadn't done the math, you are wasting 12% of your life commuting. At least get audible.com for when you're stuck in the car.

I second this request.

It boggles my mind, just how much productivity and potential the form-factor of a phone sacrifices for portability and comfort. I learned to code by tapping away on my TI-83 in class when I was bored; I can't believe that doing work on a phone is so impossibly inconvenient.

I started getting up earlier and giving a couple of my very productive hours every morning to myself.

I focus on myself first thing in the morning. Gym then Code then Work.

I found it calmed me down and since things always run late and never early its mostly working out.

Any push back I got I told them they would need to pay for my non-existent crossfit class that was pre-paid for and they quickly move on. If that failed I told them I would get a note from my doctor and they had their choice to pay for a lifetime of cholesterol medication or have their oh so important meeting. I think the uncomfortable nature of medical issues stops most people.

Exercise before work does seem to be very beneficial. I've occasionally gone to the gym before work and now commute by bicycle and it does seem to give noticeable boost of energy to the work day.

You never get the time commuting back. If you want a better work-life balance, move closer to work, or work closer to where you want to live. Switching jobs is not as hard as people make it out to be, esp. if you're good at "the game".

This. Also consider working remotely if you are into that. I had a job where I at first had to spend little over 2 hours per day commuting. The job became much more pleasurable after I got to do it from home (barring the occasional meeting of course).

Side projects are a fun idea, but I've found far more pleasure in dedicating myself to one focus: my day job.

If your day job isn't something you can get passionate about and that fulfills whatever needs your side project is doing for you, then you might want to consider switching jobs. It's not that difficult, and the upsides can be exponential.

In either case, I find my day job becomes my side and only project (as far as interest and passion and fulfillment) when I dedicate myself to it. This makes me happy and it makes my employer happy also.

So what you are saying is that work becomes your life, and your employer is happy because they 'own' you 24/7 and get many more hours of your-brain-output than they'd normally get for your salary?

I've had far more pleasure writing very little code outside work and dedicating myself to my wife, friends and being outdoors. I don't want to look back when I die with regret for only pursuing my coding ideas, which are ephemeral. Each to their own though!

No, that's absolutely not what I'm saying. Ideally it should be a relationship of mutual benefit. Dedicating yourself to your job doesn't mean you give up your work/life balance (definitely NOT what I mean), it means you're focused on your actual work while you're AT work, not distracted by side-projects, startup ideas, and anti-productive pursuits.

I'm dedicated to work at work, but I leave at 6 and I leave it behind. I don't distract myself with side-projects at home, either. When I'm at home, I'm dedicated to everything you speak of.

All I was saying is that side projects and startup ideas shouldn't be your focus while you're employed and at work. In my experience with having side-projects, I've been miserable by not being able to dedicate enough time to the side project, while my actual work suffered for distraction and time wasted. I prefer to have one pursuit in my work, and a life in my own time, and not mix them.

Thanks for your clarification, I really appreciate it.

I've been surrounded by bright starry-eyed graduates recently who take the view I was outlining. I was one once, and don't want others to lose a decade of their life :)

I completely understand—it's so hard to tell at a glance on HN whether someone is a junior in college with a summer internship who suddenly thinks they're an expert on life, versus a 10-year veteran of the startup world...

I sadly wish someone told me the same thing earlier as well. But life is good now, and you live and learn. Cheers.

It is sad. This part stood out for me " I wasn’t demanded of much: maybe to keep my room clean and to help out around the house occasionally."

Sometimes I wonder if there isn't a niche for someone to teach people like this how to live a little better. Like really basic things people used to take for granted such as cooking, being outside, and eating meals with friends and family.

It took spending some time on a family farm to make my realize that while I had "success" I had a very low quality of life, one that just wasn't worth it in the long run. It makes me sad to see posts about things like "Soylent." It's like how much of humanity can we prune off in the pursuit of coding as much as possible?

I quit my Manhattan job with the long commute and moved to a cheaper, though still vibrant city. I sleep eight hours a night, I cook meals from scratch, I have friends I see almost every day, I walk to work, and in general my quality of life is very very high. My job is fairly "boring", but I have the energy to work on my own side projects.

Don't forget that you are not a robot. That very simple things can make a human being's life better, like sleep and friends and good food.

Agreed. What if we could have a world where work was the pursuit of intellectual growth rather than the pursuit of money? What would it be like?

I'll play the part of the economist and say that this world would primarily be hungry and cold.

It would also be a world of half finished projects. Most people who do things just for the sheer joy of learning, challenge, art etc would lose interest in a task when the challenge is conquered.

>"What if we could have a world where work was the pursuit of intellectual growth rather than the pursuit of money? What would it be like?" Non-existent, because people are greedy and will always want more than their fellow man. Even if /you/ don't personally, most of the people around you probably do.

This is the #1 reason I get depressed about this life.

If such a world wouldn't be a zero-sum game, then the greedy could have their wealth, and others could pursue other things, and those two goals wouldn't conflict.

Isn't that kind of how it is right now?

It mostly is, which is why, unlike OP, I don't see the reason for it to stop.

I did some side work that applied to work. Something that interested me, but on my own free time.

I've moved on to other hobby projects, but now those side projects have become a big deal at work. Now I'm getting assigned my usual work plus the task of bringing up this side project. I refuse to give them my personal time so there are never enough hours to get anything beyond my regular work (and what are considered the highest priority) done.

It's definitely having a drain on me and I have to keep reminding myself its their problem how they prioritize things. I won't hand them more of my personal time. Occasionally I get to point this out as I'm pulled into meetings where the update is no update, which amuses me.

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