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Comment by xSwag | Hacker News Reader

As someone debating whether to do a Mathematics vs Computer Science vs Joint Honours, I'd really like to hear from graduates what worked out for them.

    - As a developer, how often are skills from CompSci degree applied on the job? 
    - What do you wish you knew about the job market as an undergrad?
    - How much part did the prestige of your university play in your current salary?

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I did two years of computer science, then quit. I use very little of what I learnt, and the personal development (no pun intended) outside of what I was taught at university has been far more important to my career.

If money is your goal, knowing how to sell yourself (in job applications and interviews) is very important. For job security and progression in general, people skills are essential.

My advice? Don't bother with university, start work ASAP, and keep learning in your spare time.

Could you please refer to any good sources or books that you've worked through for people skills? Thanks!

How to win friends and influence people - Dale Carnegie. I found this book quite brilliant.

What about job applications? Almost every job application requires a degree in CS?

If you have some experience you can point to, say contributions to open source projects, your own personal website (that isn't just a generic blog site) or maybe some volunteering for a non-profit or something like that, you can get around it. Well, I guess it depends geographically where you are as well as what sort of position you're applying for.

Maybe also consider getting your foot in the door via QA?

I find that skills from more traditional, hard degrees (maths, physics, chem, history, philosophy) translate into high-level employable skills more than raw computer science. raw comp sci (and basic programming jobs) is a useless skill without advance business domain knowledge (and the traditional hard subjects provide the scaffolding, if you will, to pick that up more quickly.)

One think I wish I knew about the job market before I started: you'll be more successful using programming as your "secret weapon" in some other domain than as line-engineer elsewhere. of course, "success" here is defined in terms of what I like, and may not match you.

I found my personal development and existing work mattered a lot more than my university.

and my experience is that the people with hard degrees tend to write bad code, as a result of not really understanding what's going on.

this may not matter for some CRUD website, but does when you're pushing the limits...

This is entirely anecdotal so take it for what its worth. In Canada I've noticed that graduates of Computer Science programs can barely operate a computer by the end of things. They can write and explain some pretty cool advanced algorithms and explain it in Big O notation - yet the business value of this knowledge is almost nil.

On the other hand, skills schools and engineering programs churn out better programmers by far. They are trained to know how to dive into other peoples code, work with a project team and generally apply methodologies to improving code wherever they encounter it. From day 1.

And yet some how managers still cling to the dated notion that a university degree guarantees return on investment.

What is a "skill school" for software development? I'm not from Canada, and unfamiliar with this.

Sorry for the late reply - skill school means places like SAIT/NAIT (in Alberta).

Basically diploma level or accredited degree programs. Most of these programs tend to focus on software development at a practical level, less on abstract concepts traditionally studied in Computer Science programs. The good ones focus specifically on developing software in one or two main technologies rather then a smattering of random stuff (:cough: Devry :cough:)

To answer you questions...

1. Hardly ever. Then again I am not doing anything amazingly special or complicated. Just standard business apps.

2. That experience is worth double what theoretical education is. So make sure you DO STUFF and stick it up on github. Write a blog about what interests though. Writing a blog is great at improving your language skills. Also take some presentation skills courses while you can as it is all about selling yourself and your MSc won't sell you sorry to say.

3. Zero. Nobody cares what uni you went to unless you are going into fields like medicine. Your experience and previous work (again stick stuff on github!!) will help more than saying you got a first from Cambridge. The exception might be places like Google but I don't know anything about working for Google :)

while an elite degree might not get you the job, it does help in getting your foot in the door, and it's likely to get you a higher base salary.

the data I have shows me that my (non first) Cambridge degree allows me to command a 10-20% higher salary than my non-Oxbridge colleagues.

1. My job requires software engineering skills more than compsci skills, i.e. designing a program in UML, or writing elegant code is important, but most actual algorithms are pre-implimented, e.g. container classes implement sorting.

2. Big companies pay more, and give you access to an internal job market. Getting work is easier than you'd think, so don't worry all that much. Your first pay settlement plays a big part in your subsequent pay deals.

3. In the UK, elite graduates (oxford etc) that I work with tend to get about 1/3rd more to do the same job. They find it much easier to get onto elite graduate programmes, e.g. in finance, so I guess the employer must compete with that. STEM graduates with a 2.1 or better from a top 50 university do not have a problem finding 'graduate' work. Anything less than that, and you may as well not have a degree (i.e. you can get good jobs, but have to work your way in as you would without a degree).

Is the 2.1 number you refer to a GPA? What's it out of?

UK degrees are classified into four classes: 1st, upper and lower 2nd, and 3rd. A first corresponds to about an average of 70%, 2.1 60%, etc.

So then is a 2.1 considered impressive?

For a hard STEM degree, a 2.1 is considered about what you should get at minimum if you have done enough work, and a first is good. A third most likely not worth having and you will have to explain in interviews why you didn't do any better, most likely. A 2.2 is "okay" but won't help you much in finding work in general. That's how I have come to understand it anyway.

Not really, since it's the most-commonly awarded grade and awarded to a clear majority of students at many schools in many subjects. Usually it means that the student was in at least the top 60% of students (but probably not the top 10%) on their course.

Since our quirky grading system leaves most students' accomplishments indistinguishable, it's the reputation of the university you studied in that matters.

If you went to an 'elite' university a 2:1 would be generally taken to indicate that you worked hard, but you also had a social life as well. A 1st from an elite would not uncommonly come with the assumption that all you did is sit in your room and study for three years and that you might lack some of the softer skills.

All the above is, however, a massive generalisation.

A 2:1 is the same as B+ so it corresponds to about 68%, 60% is a Desmond.

I won't talk about grades. Getting a 2:1 or better is a given when applying in the UK. My experience is mainly London, Finance/Tech. The hardest class was my algorithms class in my second year and it turned out to be the most useful. The rest of the degree was too unfocused. The school you go to does matter. It counts a lot. People tend to hire from Universities that they are familiar with. Not out of any elitism but it often boils down to being familiar with that university's curriculum. The biggest piece of advice is that you shouldn't expect your Computer Science degree to teach you how to develop software. You should be advancing this skill alongside your course in popular languages, by yourself in your own time. This will ensure that you can talk intelligently about technical topics. Finally, your extra-curricular activities count for a lot more than you realise.

Choosing a university degree to maximise your salary is a counter productive waste of opportunity. Become a generalist where command line foo is your super power, not your day job.

People hire to get stuff done. They have zero interest in your qualifications. They have every interest in your github repos. One cool project trumps your degree.

Employment offers plenty of scope to increase your salary. What it doesn't offer is much space (unless you work for decades to earn it) to study anything for the sake of it. That's your current opportunity: you can choose to study something for the sake of it, like Mathematics & Philosophy, History of Computing or Smart Geometry.

Don't put yourself in a box. Plenty of other people will be trying to do that for you.

>People hire to get stuff done. They have zero interest in your qualifications.

This seems to be a massive oversimplification. For a recent example, note how Yahoo is changing their recruiting to favour applicants that have a degree from a "prestigious" university.

Freelancer here: the prestige of university is certainly very useful for getting more work and commanding higher pay - some people use it as a simple marker for quality.

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