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Comment by skrebbel | Hacker News Reader

This. Now, I don't actually understand statistics at all, so please correct me if I'm missing something, but as a European I find this poll pretty telling, and a good indication of what to expect if I'd consider moving to the Valley.

Clearly, at least the maker of the poll seems to assume that I can expect to earn at least $80k-ish. I earn a bit over half that now. This is a very big difference.

Additionally, given that most people in this poll earn well over $100k, and I'm a pretty experienced programmer, this poll teaches me that asking for, say $120k, at an SV company, isn't an odd request. People won't frown or laugh at me. They might not want to pay me that, and just as well I might be undercharging, but it's not out of the question.

Can I draw these conclusions? If not, why not?

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I think you can draw those conclusions: if you move here you can expect to double your current salary.

Not covered by the poll is the fact that your living expenses will likely more than double, especially if you have to use a car to get to your job. Your vacation time will be cut in half. Health care expenses may rise. Bottom line is be prepared for some decline in your current standard of living.

At the same time, you have the possibility of lottery-style winnings if your employer becomes the next Facebook. Hmm, perhaps you might be better off buying a real lottery ticket.

Health care costs may rise? Where is more expensive than the US? I'm not being facetious as you may have something in mind - what situation do you imagine where it would get cheaper by moving to the US?

If you don't have to make use of your health care, then the primary cost would be increased healthcare premiums. Which are largely borne by the employer. So, while the actual expense would be higher, it's also rolled into (and already accounted for) by your increased salary.

Now, if you require treatment and have come from a more civilized place (e.g., much of the rest of the civilized world), you're in for, shall we say, a real treat.

Why will living costs double? Cars and fuel are just as cheap and sv housing costs are pretty close to London averages for example.

Fuel is indeed rather more expensive in Europe (certainly UK, plus single person's sample abroad). :/

Everybody I know who's gone to America has just ended up buying a larger car with a bigger engine to compensate for the prices. (By European standards, driving-related articles seem to be very cheap in America; obviously fuel is the most famous example, but new cars are inexpensive too.) So I'm sure their total car-related expenditure is about the same.

Lower than central London actually - though London does have better public transport so commuting from 50/70 miles away isn't that much of a drag

Statistically speaking, you can draw the conclusion that your salary is substantially lower than typical of people who responded to this poll. You can't draw any conclusion about your salary in relation to the overall market, because the poll respondents are not randomly distributed among the population of the overall market and you have no information about the demographics of who chose to respond.

But if you drop the strict statistical sense and just look at the results with common-sense realism, yes you can figure that the poll generally reflects the broad reality and aiming for the middle of the poll range would be reasonable to request.

The people shooting down the first line of thinking are being pedantic about statistical rigor and the meaning of a conclusion. The poll is not statistically reliable because the sampling is not truly random, and it's not at all useful for making fine-grained distinctions between $120k and $125k. They are right, but you can ignore them and apply common sense for broad realistic purposes. The median salary in Silicon Valley is clearly not $40k.

For you there's an additional tool. Salaries for sponsored persons is public data.

http://www.foreignlaborcert.doleta.gov/performancedata.cfm

You get paid a little lower if you're going on visa, so its more like 100-110kish.

I spose the 300k ppl are the ceos! (yeh, i wish haha)

Could you explain that? Why would companies pay less to people on visas?

because h1b visas require you to stay employed (you have like 30 days before they deport you) and they require you to keep the same job title throughout the whole greencard process or your waiting period starts over.

So if you were to get a promotion at your current job, the entire process would essentially start over? Why is that?

no it won't. According to my understanding this is what happens

a) if you have applied for 485 and it has been 6 months since you applied you invoke AC21 and you are done.

b) if you have not applied for 485, your new company will have to reapply for 1-140 and labor for the new position but you do not lose your place in the queue as your PD is ported from your previous application.

it depends on the promotion. the ac21 stipulates "New employment must be the 'same or similar' occupational classification". According to my coworkers, that means they can't get promoted to management from dev/qa.

http://immigrationroad.com/green-card/ac21-portability-chang...

Thats not completely true. I've been promoted while still on H1B and had a pay rise. The procedures need to be followed. Position and pay can also change in preparation for GC, this is quite normal.

The later part of the above statement is an incorrect. You can change a job while your green card is being processed provided,

a) You have applied for your 485. b) Its been 180 days since you have applied for it.

This process is called invoking AC21.

In my opinion and experience H1B candidates are paid on par with other candidates. I saw no salary discrimination at least with decent and reputed companies. I agree H1b is exploited by some companies but those are typically consulting or outsourcing companies.

Unfortunately, the bottleneck usually is the period until your priority date becomes current and you can actually submit form I-485. Processing the I-485 normally only takes a few months, unless it gets stuck in the FBI background check somehow.

thanks for the update. i was just going on what my h1b coworkers have told me. unfortunately, i can no longer edit or delete my original post, so i hope everyone reads your reply.

as for payment versus greencard/citizens versus h1b's, it depends on the company. I know some companies that do pay the same for both, but I can name at least 5 'reputable' (or at least, large, household name) companies that my coworkers told me had different, lower pay scales for the h1b workers that they actively avoided working for, even after getting a greencard. But since i've not worked for one directly (as far as i know anyway), i'm not going to name names.

I did some more research after leaving my last comment, and the part i was talking about was "New employment must be the 'same or similar' occupational classification," [1] which according to my coworkers means you can't switch amongst QA engineer, dev/software engineer, and manager.

The dev <-> QA switch probably isn't very common, but dev/qa -> management is apparently an issue, since green-cards for Indians with a masters take roughly a decade of waiting on an h1b to get (again, this is according to my coworkers, not something i have direct experience with).

[1]: http://immigrationroad.com/green-card/ac21-portability-chang...

Note that all this only applies to those whose priority dates became current due to the USCIS fiasco of July 2007, and filed I-485 at that time. Everyone who started the GC process later and is waiting for their PD to become current cannot invoke AC21. Frustrating!

From the page you linked:

"Hundreds of thousands of people were able to file I-485 applications under the July Visa Bulletin of 2007"

Correct, so it was not a fiasco for people who were able to apply for Adjustment of Status i-485. This happened in 2009 too. I hope it keeps on happening every few years. At least people can get EAD which gives you ability to work anywhere in the US.

Adding to my previous post,

For a GC application to apply for 485 your PD needs to be current. India EB2 and EB3 is heavily backlogged. China EB2 situation is better than India EB2. If a GC application's or its spouse's country of birth is not India or China (ROW category, Rest Of World) , the PD moves really fast in EB2. I think its current now.

h1b requires you to stay employed at the same company. There are some exceptions to change company but its a complicated process.

You need 5 years in the US to be granted a green card. h1b are valid 3 years. Generally you need 2 h1b to get a green card (of course you start the process much before the h1b ends) if you are in a gc and you stop working in the us for a certain amount of time (i forgot, but its not longer than a year), then you start over and the gc is terminated (you need a h1b again)

For citizen, its 10 years.

h1b specifies AFAIR that once you're unemployed you have to leave the country immediately without citing numbers albeit 30 days sounds reasonable.

Someone making 60k in Europe is more likely to accept an offer of 100k, even when the going market rate for that position is 120k.

It cost about 20k for most "big" companies to move you, between visa costs, move costs, etc. Then, they know you're going to accept a lower salary and they have no reason to propose you more - companies almost always propose you the minimum that sounds serious. You'll raise it a bit and leave it at that, or at least that's what is expected.

most young engineers (h1b target) are paid much less than in the valley, so given the quality of life, the adventure, etc - AND that the salary is anyway higher, they know very few will refuse.

As a European, and depending on both your personal circumstances and the European country you live in, you should also ensure you adjust for non-salary items, such as healthcare, childcare, education, unemployment insurance, etc. For most people, a US salary needs to be approx 50% higher than a German or Swiss one, for example, to accommodate these additional factors.

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