In China, Hacking Has Widespread Acceptance | Hacker News Reader

In China, Hacking Has Widespread Acceptance

nytimes.com

63 pointsinselkampf32 comments

If it doesn't draw blood, its accepted business practice in China. If it does draw blood, it might be accepted business practice.

Seriously, I've never seen a place where cheating was so accepted: just about every other taxi ride attempted to take me the "scenic route", almost every business deal ended up with them trying to screw or defraud us.

What a nightmare of a place to do business in - never again.

A bit too pessimistic. Its not that bad here, especially in the bigger non-southern cities.

Its not that bad here

In a business context?

Ya, I know people who start businesses and they aren't completely screwed.

Taxis also don't take me for the scenic route, at least in Beijing or Shanghai.

I've never had a problem with a taxi driver in Shenzhen or Guangzhou, either - it's certainly better than, say, Rio.

I'm not going to pretend that doing business in China is "easy" or that China doesn't sometimes boggle the mind with absurd and archaic decision making paradigms, but it's not exactly the wild west anymore.

I agree. We operate in several areas of mainland China (Shenzhen, Hangzhou, and Kunshan, near Shanghai), and we have a major IT office in Shenzhen. Their general responsibility is the combination software/hardware hacking to build factory control systems, and the impossible-to-overestimate benefit of having those people perform that specific function is precisely their can-do attitude and willingness to hack. This in contrast to, say, India, where we have a much larger dev+ops organization that generally spends their time executing assigned tasks rather than engaging in creative problem solving. Yes, there are pitfalls to operating in China re: government/law/IP risk, but on the other hand, it seems nearly everyone outside party politics has learned hacking skills simply in order to survive. It's an incredibly valuable market, and this attitude along with a decent formal education system and ubiquitous internet access is propelling it full steam ahead.

tl;dr: Yes, there are problems, but there are a lot of upsides to operating in China, too, besides even the $ (either the huge market or cost savings, depending who you are).

I'm probably slightly biased here, having quite a few good friends that themselves are very involved with the manufacturing scene in China. From what I know and have seen, the apparently widespread cheating you mentioned is much rarer than you say. In many areas there is serious friction between (corrupt) government and business, and it is mostly under such situations where I've known about "non-standard business practices".

That said, if you're white, then I would be more inclined to believe the incidences of fraud you've experienced. I still don't believe it's a majority, but the incidences of foreigner-exploitation in China is significant enough to turn away a lot of potential business. I don't think it's really racism per se, as I think amongst many Chinese, especially the less well-educated, they believe that for reasons of history, foreigners, especially Caucasians, owe them something -- "after all, didn't you guys plunder our country's treasures 100, 200 years ago?" (8 nation alliance, Opium Wars, World War II, etc). It's irrational and this is no excuse or justification of their disgusting behaviour, but I think this is what's happening in many cases.

Still, there seems to be a slightly Sinophobic slant to these articles. Stuxnet (I think most people believe it's American/Israeli?) is just evidence of how far the Pentagon has gone with hacking. Its sophistication is actually amazing, and I while most may claim that "hacking Iran is beneficial for the rest of the world", I don't think the consequent fear of American hacking prowess is irrational at all. Is China's decision to ramp up their own cyber-espionage the right thing to do? I don't know. But I believe that any look at the history of international politics will show that nobody really gives a shit about international law whenever it becomes inconvenient. China is hardly a "victim", as they claim, but the narrative of "Chinese hackers rising" that's so popular these days distracts us from the much-more formidable power that our Pentagon already has.

> (8 nation alliance, Opium Wars, World War II, etc). It's irrational and this is no excuse or justification of their disgusting behaviour, but I think this is what's happening in many cases.

Even today, "Caucasians" don't visit countries to make friends (Africa). The behavior is justified, from a pragmatic perspective.

Being a hippie peace freak is just silly.

> "Chinese hackers rising" that's so popular these days distracts us from the much-more formidable power that our Pentagon already has.

True that.

Actually, a lot of white people visit Africa and do a lot of good, still -- both businesspeople and (usually religious) charities and development organizations. Largely enough good to make up for the big NGOs and UN, and some of the legacy of colonialism and the cold war.

I know you think Africa is still largely a charity case but everyone else knows that its the next big growth market that will be easily plundered due to weak political systems and fragmentation.

No, I think Africa is mostly a business opportunity, sans a few places which have structural political problems which could be best addressed through high-velocity physics demonstrations. But it's undeniable that the US v. USSR caused a lot of problems during the cold war (Angola, etc), including propping up a lot of bad leaders or supporting revolutions.

I don't think it will be "plundered", though -- the foreigners (white and Asian) doing business going to Africa are making life better for everyone.

There are a lot of NGOs and UN organizations still operating in Africa which don't help (and never really helped). But there are small, usually religious, charities who are also doing good, just like they do in Asia, Europe, and the US.

> ... market that will be easily plundered due to weak political systems and fragmentation.

Profit from weapons. Profit from (medical) patents. Will never sell industrial patents, whilst exploiting African Earth.

You know the story of how chickens are fed dead-chicken-matter ?

The white man know only to take. Never to give.

Week political systems make it much risker to do business in Africa. Stupid people look at Africa as a growth opertunity's but few westerners got rich in Russa after the cold war. Weak government actually makes political connections more important just look at China.

Actually look to china for the model for exploitation in Africa arrangements established at the state for exploitation. You need political connections no doubt but Africa is no sob story at all. Its undiscovered gold.

> I don't think it's really racism per se, as I think amongst many Chinese, especially the less well-educated, they believe that for reasons of history, foreigners, [...] owe them something

Technically, that is racism. Blaming similar looking people.

Less insidious than other forms maybe...

Don't think so. Technically speaking racism is strictly prejudice based on racial, biological theories. This is prejudice based on history. Imperial Japan was part of the 8 Nation alliance, defeated China in the Sino-Japanese Wars, in WWII, etc. It's just easier to figure out if you're a white businessman than a Japanese businessman. Looks are a part of it, but their reasoning is all historical. Unlike say, segregation in the 60s USA -- black < white simply because they're black. So, maybe it's sort of like racism, but if you want to be technical, it's some other kind of prejudice. I'd say xenophobia is a better term.

A friend told me that in China, reputation is very important. To do business with a reputed company, you have to have a good reputation. As the company that you're working with's reputation gets worse, so do your chances of getting work done / getting paid. Of course, well-reputed companies are probably in higher demand from both suppliers and customers, just like everywhere else, compared to say, cheaper firms.

Where in the world is what you said any different?

The unfortunate thing is that the reputation thing does not seem to extend to customer relationships. It boggles my mind how companies in China seem to be so willing to offer their customers substandard (or even unsafe) products for the sake of saving pennies here and there, especially in an age of weibo and capital punishment for the worst executives.

> A friend told me that in China, reputation is very important.

There's two concepts here - "face" (literal translation) and "connections" (also a literal translation). Both are widely misunderstood.

AFAIK (and I'm not an expert):

Connections (guanxi) is fairly straightforward - it's all about who you know. However, there's a spectrum between casual acquaintances, people who do each other favors, extremely close friends, and family (in order of usefulness). It's often used as a bluff too (saying you know a guy, when it's all just a con).

"Face" (mian zi) is much more complicated. Since the term is used in English, it's easy to mistake what it really means. And it's also kind of vague - everything from "don't look undignified", to "don't let anyone disrespect you", to "have a good reputation".

Generally, Westerners think "face" means "be upfront, and willing to admit to an honest mistake". In China, this is rarely the case.

The attitude in China is that if you don't cheat, you're the fool--because the other guy is certainly cheating you. So everyone lies, cheats, and steals (while of course maintaining a thin veneer of plausible deniability) to avoid being the bigger fool.

This probably is related to the fact that China is a shame-based culture rather than a guilt-based culture. What I mean by that is, people there only feel bad about immoral/unethical behavior if and when they get caught. Wrongdoing is externalized, it exists only in the eyes of others.

"How do you sleep at night?" Is a question Americans often ask when they know someone is getting away with morally wrong or criminal behavior. In China, you will not hear an equivalent question.

Out of curiosity, how were you finding business partners?

There are plenty of upstanding businesses (as well as terrible ones) but most markets are fairly opaque; as a Taiwanese person myself I've found most success working with a local partner to manage resources.

Crackers exist and it is a shame that the western world punishes security research and shifts the blame towards the "hackers" instead of trying to get these vulnerabilities fixed, where they originated.

In the coming (or ongoing) cyber-war - who wins? The countries that welcomed crackers or those who jail them?

Note: I am not advocating breaking into people's computers. Just a community that welcomes security input.

The reason that the blame is shifted toward "hackers" is that being proactive with security, while the right thing to do, costs money and time. In a market where software from different vendors is usually only determined by price and update frequency spending additional money and time is a competitive disadvantage. However, if you can push your security failings off onto "hackers" not only do you minimize costs but your customers, if they're not sufficiently savvy to this game, think that you're the better vendor because you're able to "beat hackers at their own game".

Nowhere is this mindset more prevalent than in the anti-virus software field, which of course is another can of worms itself.

Oh, too bad. :-(

Given the headline, I was hoping for an article on how technically inclined people are not ridiculed as "geeks" or "nerds" in China, but are rather accepted as contributors to key aspects of life in the 21st century. Instead, they're still using "hacking" and "cracking" interchangeably in the New York Times. Apparently we're not as "21 century" as I thought.

I think this community really needs to get over this. Individuals, groups of individuals, or even entire communities do not get to determine the definitions of words or how words are used. Words usage is determined by society at large. If this is how hacking is used by society, then that's what it is. That's how the English language works. That's why the word xerox is an acceptable verb. That's why the meaning of the word gay has changed.

English evolves according to how its speakers and writers use it. Let it go.

The word gay changed precisely because a small community refused to "let it go".

I'm not sure what you're saying? When I look up the history and etymology of the word gay, I don't see anything of the sort. It was quite a gradual change not the fault of any single small community.

> Instead, they're still using "hacking" and "cracking" interchangeably

We lost this one a long time ago...

Being "technically inclined" doesn't make you a hacker either. The news may misuse the term, but so does this entire community. "Hacking" does not mean "doing a software job well".

Meta: it seems the New York Times really didn't appreciate getting blocked from China a few months ago. All the articles I read on HN that depict China negatively seem to come from the NYT. Or maybe other publications that aren't blocked in China actively avoid those topics?

Or, now that they are blocked, they have nothing to lose by criticising China, unlike other media corporations.

It seems to me that China is building itself a problem that it might not be able to handle in the future. Sort of like the Romans (or Germans or British or Americans) had / have with all of the soldiers they produce(d).

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