Google Acquires Makani Power And Its Airborne Wind Turbines | Hacker News Reader

Google Acquires Makani Power And Its Airborne Wind Turbines

techcrunch.com

135 pointspsawaya41 comments

I work for one of the biggest global wind turbine manufacturers. On one hand I recognize that this is exactly how disruption happens- small player with a tremendous idea and the opportunity to utilize wind resources in areas where traditional turbine designs can't be sited.

On the other, I don't envy the engineering team their road ahead- I see firsthand how many challenges we face every day with "ground-based" turbines, and have an inkling of how difficult an engineering challenge this will be. Best of luck to them- anything that pushes renewables forward in a meaningful way is a win for everybody.

While I'm sure they will face many challenges, what they are doing is not the equivalent of putting a ground based turbine in the air.

Their "wing" is the equivalent to a part of a turbine blade, and it moves in circles like a turbine blade would. The propellors in the wing are what extract the energy, but they would not be nearly as big as the blades on a conventional wind turbine.

Great news for the folks working at Makani! I hope Google continues to develop the product. Every time I've spoken to anyone at Makani, about tether materials, motor design, carbon fiber manufacturing, whatever, they've known their shit very deeply. They've really beaten a path through a lot of untrodden ground to get to where they are, I hope the product gets off the ground (literally!)

For those that have a subscription, The New Yorker did an interesting profile of Makani in the 5/20 issue:

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2013/05/20/130520fa_fact_...

Apparently Montague was actually seeking funding to create a kite-boat (he had previously help establish kite-boarding), but it was Larry and Sergey's idea to go down the wind energy route.

Tangential: Larry is an avid kiteboarder.

So is Sergey.

reminds me of a passage from In The Plex

Over the years Winograd had become an expert at figuring out where students stood on the spectrum of brainiacs who found their way into the department. Some were kids whose undergrad record was straight A pluses, GRE scores scraping perfection, who would come in and say,“What thesis should I work on?” On the other end of the spectrum were kids like Larry Page, who would come in and say, “Here’s what I think I can do.” And his proposals were crazy. He’d come into the office and talk about doing something with space tethers or solar kites.

Saul Griffith (co-founder of Makani) is a far more valuable asset than just the tech/product here. He's very active, collaborative, & well respected in the Maker community.

And Saul Griffith is also Tim O'Reilly's son-in-law.

Is Saul still involved at Makani? I haven't seen him mentioned in the news stories about the purchase and Makani is listed as one of the things he's done in the past on his website. The awesome things he could do at Google is one of the first things I thought of but haven't gotten any confirmation that he's going with the company.

Nope, Saul has his own ideas lab called otherlab. He hasn't been involved in Makani for several years.

As a kitesurfer and investor in renewable energy (solar) I really love this company. The founder is one of the pioneers of kitesurfing and was the chief designer for Naish kites when the industry was just starting out. He realized that you didn't need a tower and giant blades to generate power from wind. Neat. Would be great if someday they have a system that can propel boats.

> Would be great if someday they have a system that can propel boats.

There's a company in Germany that is building power kite -style sail systems for cargo ships. They have been running some prototypes successfully.

http://www.skysails.info/english/

Makani is looking to hire a few people: http://www.makanipower.com/careers/current-job-openings/

Wow. I used to hang out on the kitesurf email lists on yahoo back in the day, Saul used to post open source kitesurf patterns, I made a few kites (of my own design.)

Then he went on to start Monkey Kites, which I think he lets his sister run (it's now called http://www.griffinkites.com.au )

Don Montague used to come on the forums talking about giant ship kites that would tow a oil tanker across the ocean saving fuel.

It's interesting to see that they're working together on a non-kite idea.

Also, I bet that spinning wing chops birds and bats up with 100% efficiency. Maybe they plan on sending it much much higher in the atmosphere (you could tether lots to an airship which in turn was teathered to the ground)

Congrats to those at Makani. Also, RIP Corwin[1].. I didn't know him personally but it's clear from the responses after his passing how important he was to the company and to those around him. It's a shame he didn't get to see Makani get this wonderful bit of validation.

[1] - http://www.makanipower.com/corwin/

Does anyone know how effective high-altitude wind energy might be for producing energy at scale?

My understanding based on reading their materials, is that it is very similar to conventional wind power. "High altitude" here refers to around 600m, which disappointed me because I thought it would be an army of devices flying autonomously in the stratosphere, (I kept reading to figure out how they got the power back to earth, at which point I found out they were tethered, and not flying in the stratosphere).

So they should be very similar to wind power, except that they are tethered, rather than a turbine on a tower.

I think the main issue is how much space they use on the ground, i.e. how much space around the tether point needs to be kept clear.

EDIT: apparently even wind at 600m is better at ground level.

Furthermore, the system is not really a "turbine sitting on a wing". The wing is the turbine blade. It moves in a circle, and the propellers on the wing draw the power from it's motion. It's really an amazing idea that, the kind of thing I wish I had thought of. I think this page has the most interesting information.

http://www.makanipower.com/why-airborne-wind/

I don't think it's the goal. This kind of energy is more interesting when you don't have access to the grid.

It could also be used to fuel an engine.

This is great for the owners of Makani but what does Google honestly know about running an energy company?

With all of the side projects that Google has shuttered lately, I am disappointed more than anything by this acquisition.

Seriously? Google Reader flaming out does not mean that Google is a terrible steward for big projects, especially "moonshot" projects like this.

I would be thrilled if Google shut down web services that could easily be done by other companies/startups in favor of pursuing big, meaningful projects that only they can do, like self-driving cars, Google Fiber, Google Glass, etc.

So would I.

But if they can't succeed at what they're inherently good at (the web) then why have you any confidence in their success in any other market?

This is GoogleX though.. What do they know about running a self-driving car company? Or about running an augmented reality eyewear company?

This is their moon-shot division, run by Brin to work on crazy ideas. Makani seems right up their alley.

Renewable enegery is presumably a semi-established market.

Augmented-reality-eyewear and self-driving-cars are not.

After reading that other article about GoogleX, it kind of makes sense when you piece it all together.

Remote power generation running wireless access points on airborne Makani generators and/or balloons. Bringing the net, and therefore Google, to third-world areas that can't get online right now.

maybe a dumb question but how did they solve the issue of coiling? if my Q isn't clear, I mean the twisting of the tether as the airborne vehicle circles the sky

can't they just turn whatever is holding the tether in place on the ground?

sure, but you can't turn the actual wire itself indefinitely or it will shear eventually

The twisting is what transfers the energy, it must be turning a generator.

According to their video, little turbines in the wing generate the electricity and transmit it through the tether. So probably the tether is attached to a ground unit that doesnt allow twisting (i.e rotates with the tether)

http://i.imgur.com/UoEfnyW.png?1

Yeah, that's correct, and makes more sense. They do have a page explaining the tech: http://www.makanipower.com/how-does-it-work/

tie the tether to something that can spin in opposition to the twist (a wheel or a gimbal).

sure, but you can't turn the actual wire itself indefinitely or it will shear eventually

You can just use a slip ring[1] at one or both ends (along with a whole bunch of axial thrust bearings, I imagine).

There are some neat (and very non-RoHS) slip ring implementations that use a series of liquid mercury filled channels to sidestep the brush wear issue, but I don't know that would be useful here, based on rotation speeds.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slip_ring

Hey, I know someone who works there. Congrats, Erik!

Somebody please, please tell me this isn't a 'talent acquisition' that's going to show up on gwern's list in a week.

One of the links says that each device outputs 30kW. That seems way too low to be cost effective.

Yet.

What happens to the kite when the wind stops blowing?

The demo video shows the kite autonomously landing to a rig next to the ground station. It uses the engine/turbine propellers to launch and land using electrical power.

Their material says that they launch at wind speeds of 3.5 m/s, which is a light summer day breeze that is hardly noticeable.

It is a common misconception that kites need high winds to fly, the optimal wind speed for most kites is 3-6 m/s.

> Great news for the folks working at Makani!

In the short term, yes. Given the history of Google and its diversification efforts, not so much.

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