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Comment by singular | Hacker News Reader

Ack. Reliable or not, I'm sure it was meant as a feel-good piece, but for people like me the quote:-

"Vaillant’s key takeaway, in his own words: “The seventy-five years and twenty million dollars expended on the Grant Study points … to a straightforward five-word conclusion: ‘Happiness is love. Full stop.’"

Is actually very depressing. I am 5'5" so have this (if you've not encountered it you are unlikely to be aware) INSANE disadvantage when it comes to dating - women can't stand short men. Seems almost certain to be a genetic thing.

Basically, I've given up. There are major issues in the family too, so I am half-estranged from many close members of the family.

So yeah, hopefully it's just false feel-good fluff.

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I'm 5'4", chubby, prematurely balding, and under 30, and I've been in long term relationships with several awesome women.

There are certainly disadvantages to being short, probably especially in the dating realm. Big whoop. That's not what's preventing you from dating anyone.

I never said preventing. It's a massive disadvantage. I could (+ might) write a longer piece about the whole subject as there is more to this than height but it's quite surprising what a difference it makes.

If you can overcome that disadvantage, all power to you, but it doesn't change the state of affairs.

I refer you to this graph - http://cdn.okcimg.com/blog/lies/MessagesPerWeek.png

It's a rough analysis but shows a clear female preference based on height. Certainly an indicator.

Sorry if this sounds harsh, I mean no harm, just asking you to consider...

There are plenty of women out there who would be happy to date you. You are the one filtering them out. Consider women over 40 and women with children. Those groups have huge problems finding men. Works both ways.

Sure, actually this is far better reply than most here, sorry you got downvoted. You at least accept the premise.

I hate to sound like a terrible hypocrite, but I do have to apply filter enough that I'd be able to honestly say I found them attractive. My standards are actually not all that vastly high to sound like a terribly shallow person.

As for women w/children, I wouldn't on the basis of having had a step parent during my upbringing and the various weirdnesses that involves so I'd rather be single than be in that position.

I'm 5'3", it is an insane disadvantage. Even if that's false, no amount of words will change the belief -- it's experiences that change that.

But we both know that, no matter how fucked up you are, there are girls who would consider you "good enough". Your job is to go out and find out what those girls are like. One of two things will happen: either you're fine with those girls; or you'll suddenly find a massive motivation to improve yourself (for an endgame of what's possible, see Seth Green)

Your only problem right now is ignorance. Go out and change that.

At last somebody who gets my point.

I've given up because of this and other factors. But I respect your positivity and you're right there is more to it.

To be fair, there is really no mention of romantic relationships. And in my experience, short stature is not nearly enough to count you out.

Agreed.. I'd say just try to be genuinely interested in and caring for other people, your confidence will grow, you'll have brighter days, and it'll come. Attitude is everything. Just be a all around good guy, and doors will open (romantic, and otherwise). Also ya might not get a 9 or 10, but there are plenty of girls out there that don't mind. Heck, I've dated girls with 2" on me.

Wishful thinking, I'm afraid. How tall are you compared to the average in your country? For somebody who doesn't have this disadvantage, it simply doesn't exist.

I refer again to http://cdn.okcimg.com/blog/lies/MessagesPerWeek.png - it's not 100% but it's indicative. Also I refer you to walking down the street in your town. If you were correct, then there'd be a big variation (or at least one resembling the normal dist) in male height in couples you see. But in fact what you see is something of a skew...

ooof... or be a debbie downer the rest of your life, and focus on all the negatives you can't control, and be a total victim. Maybe there are other reasons unseen to yourself that explain your lack of romantic partnerships.... you sound like an 8 grade anorexic girl, complaining about being fat and unpopular. Man up and learn to play with the hand you've been dealt instead of making excuses and searching for validation in all the wrong places. You've got one shot at life, it's up to you weather you want to brood over things you can't change, or keep your head up and make the most of it.

I don't like to waste my life on internet arguments (nicely in alignment with your comments, there), but seriously?

I hate to join the 'hacker news is going downhill' parade, but this is pretty bad. Go read http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html :-

    When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. E.g.:-

    "That is an idiotic thing to say; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3" can be shortened to "1 + 1 is 2, not 3."

Note you didn't even respond to my points, you just gave me the minimally informed personal attack bit.

I wrote a fair bit here in response to your 'points', but to be honest your lack of civility doesn't warrant it. Feel free to disagree, but try + do it politely, this isn't reddit.

Maybe try another country where people are shorter and men from the US are more attractive to the local women. I'm an average height average looking fellow from Canada. But living in Latin America I strut around like a Norse god. I'm dating a model right now - I never thought I'd say that.

Yes, this is indeed something I've considered :-)

I'd be completely average height in Mexico, say.

wat. you're 5'5". that's what's stopping you from being in love? what in the fuck does that have to do with ANYTHING. that's not a question.

you need to get out of your head, your bubble and get friends first. good friends that can help you get your head straight. no one cares about your height bro.

Except there is plenty of evidence that women have a massive preference for tall men. Just go round asking some women, seriously. Or check out dating sites/columns. Height is a biiig thing.

How tall are you can I ask compared to your national average? To somebody without this disadvantage it simply doesn't exist.

It's not the only thing, but it's a MASSIVE thing.

I'm 6'2", have a few friends who are short, in the 5'5"-5'8" range, and have talked about this with pretty much all the women I'm friends with. Yes, this is true, you're right. It is almost certain to be a genetic thing. Everybody here saying they know some short guy who gets lots of girls or is a short guy and is happily married, well, this is not actually what the parent is saying. He's just saying there's a huge disavantage in being short. He's right. Try this mental test the next time you see a very short, slim, but quite good looking guy. Now imagine him in a 6'3" build. It to men who do this mentally, it drastically changes the appeal this guy has. This was told to me by a woman friend, and it happens everytime I think about it. Also, the Tom Cruise example is a bad one. Women see him in movies, where you can't tell their height. If you're successful, smart, a good person (or much more important: not a jerk), you can find a good person and have a relationship, a meaningful, lasting one, with her. But if you base your romantic success in how easily you get dates/get laid compared to taller guys, then you'll probably end up frustrated.

I am short (5'6"). Never had a problem (except maybe as a kid). My wife is taller than me.

I am sure you will be fine. It's all about the attitude.

I had a very beautiful girlfriend during uni + didn't believe this was a problem at all. Then that ended + it became quite obvious.

Just because you managed to overcome the disadvantage, doesn't make it not a thing. It's not all about the attitude (or rather apparent confidence), it's partly about it.

To put this in perspective, you're taller than Tom Cruise.

Tom Cruise is 5ft 7in

... In platform shoes, standing on a box. Some special effects don't need CGI :-)

No, I'm pretty sure he's actually 5'7" and the platform shoes make him taller.

Sigh. Sure, if I looked like/were as confident as Tom Cruise I could compensate for the height disadvantage. But it's still a disadvantage.

The interesting point with these sorts of responses is they follow the fallacious logic of 'here is an anecdotal example of somebody with your disadvantage succeeding due to separate advantages, therefore you don't have a disadvantage at all.'

I agree. I'm also in the short category, so I understand your pain.

I don't know about his confidence, but he's got really good looks. He doesn't have much acting talent (in my opinion), still he is so successful in his field. I suppose looks can take one far, really far.

Some of it may be attitude. Others can read insecurity, which can be a big barrier to establishing solid relationships. I think it's true that many women have a bias against shorter men, but after getting to know someone can see that it was a shallow prejudgment. I can admit to stating a preference for men over six feet, but have dated men not even an inch taller than my 5'6" self. In the end, other things mattered much more than one uncontrollable characteristic.

"I can admit to stating a preference for men over six feet, but have dated men not even an inch taller than my 5'6" self."

QED.

I think it's less of a conscious thing a lot of the time, rather it's an ingredient in sexual attraction + 'chemistry', so naturally you women often feel more attracted to a taller man (if that doesn't sound terribly condescending, I don't mean it to be!), in the same way we men prefer symmetrical faces and a certain hip-to-waist ratio. We usually wouldn't put it that way, but it's inbuilt.

It's only 1 factor of course. I think of it in terms of chemistry prerequisites - once you get through those then the real stuff that matters comes into play, but without it you're never going to advance beyond the friendzone.

I just had a couple stay at my place from Airbnb. They were both under 5'5. I don't have anything beyond this anecdote, but this alone must prove that someone is out there!

Sure there are exceptions, but as a rule, he's right.

I'm slightly taller than average, but even I have noticed this phenomenon. It is ridiculous how many single women say they exclusively want a tall man, they want to "look up" to a man. Even the shorter-than-average women want a man of at least average height. On dating sites like PlentyOfFish I've seen ~5' tall women say that they are only interested in men at least 6' tall. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that height is in the top 3 discriminators that women have for men (weight, race and baldness being in contention for the other two spots).

The short guys (as well as chubby, bald guys) that I know who have been successful with the ladies have all been comedians. If you can get past their firewall of physical characteristics, making a woman laugh is the root password to her lady parts and her heart. Sucks if you are short, fat, bald and not very funny though.

Ok here is another one:

I am 6'2 weigh 190 and I haven't had a significant other in 2 years. Seriously, it's confidence and understanding what your standards should be. I know that seems patronizing and an over simplification but these rules seem to hold true across couples. The greater exception that we like to notice more often is "How did that guy/girl get that guy/girl".

I don't doubt that women on a dating site say those things in majority. But there is a strong minority that don't look for those things.

Read The Game. I've met Neil Strauss in real life and he's 5'6" on a good day. His fiance is beautiful, smart and taller (plus, she likes to wear heels).

Or, don't. People certainly do succeed based on PUA techniques. But they're confusing the causes of their newfound success.

This will get you 80% of the way there: 1) Volume, volume, volume. 2) Look to have fun, not for your soul mate. If something's not happening, BFD.

And this will get you to 150% of the way there: 3) Do interesting things, have interesting stories to tell, and meet interesting people.

and the 80/20 rule applies to your advice too, it's mainly just the volume.

> Read The Game.

Please do not do this if you value reducing the amount of misery in the world.

The Game is a superficial childish half-assed douche version of the truth.

The truth is you have to be confident and genuine, treat women like people, meet a whole lot of them, and actually try to find someone you get along with and like.

There are no shortcuts to that; you can't simulate it. The Game might get you to fake-it-til-you-make-it, but that's about it.

If you've actually read the Game you know he talks about this in the latter third of the book.

And fake-it-til-you make it is just another word for practice.

I'm somewhat biased because I know Neil and go to his intensives. But they are extremely good and I've gotten a lot out of them. Further, I decided to meet him because of the Game.

There is no numeric measurement for personality in online dating. If women had to balance height and personality in online dating it would reveal a much different picture.

Just like real life.

It's all in your expectatives. Stop listening to what people say and start acting as you really want. For some insight look at a youtube channel called "simple pick up" just three guys getting telephone numbers from guirls doing the most ridiculous or supossedly impossible stuff. Just be confident in youself and make them laugth.

The most ugly, short guy (ok, almost the most) I have seen in my life was the biggest playboy I have ever met. He could have any women he wanted.

It would be long story, but when observing him one thing came to mind: he knew how to talk to women. Just imagine that the guys nickname was a "Beast". He was that ugly. I've seen him just once in my life. We went on a trip in College and his College was on a trip at the same place. It was a 3-days trip to the Mountains. He really had a lot of girls every night. Don't ask me how, I don't know. It was (and still is when I think about it) like magic to me. All the dudes where in a deep wow-factor. I mean we - of course - were jealous, but also curious. How he does this? Like he could have put some spell on these girls. Never seen something like that before in my life.

One of the friends from college - a girl - told us she used to go to the same high school as him - so of course guys started asking her all the questions about him. She didn't look comfortable to talk about it, but admitted the guy had slept with most pretty girls in high school, plus some (married!) teachers. When someone asked her if he slept with her too she just gave us that look.

The only explanation I could have thought of is this proverb: Men fall in love through their eyes. Women fall in love through their ears.

Look at Hawking. He has wife, he has kids, grandchildren etc.

Looks may be important for women but not as much as other aspects - self-esteme, wealth, being popular, etc. They crave powerful men. Or the ones who convince them they are. Or they really like the way they are bulshitted, when the bulshitter is really skilled. Or I don't know. But really, your looks is non-factor, trust me.

>>>It would be long story, but when observing him one thing came to mind: he knew how to talk to women.

That is what matters. Not height or appearance or income. FFS, the guys I've seen have women flock to them! It's like they're magnetic. Yet to another guy, they're just ordinary.

yeah. It gets worse. Not ordinary - boring beyond belief!

Again, the exception to the rule doesn't make it not (generally) true.

"Men fall in love through their eyes. Women fall in love through their ears."

And people love to tell themselves convenient stories that may or may not be true. If that proverb were really the case you'd expect to see a full variation of height difference in couples but no, you nearly always see a woman ~ 2 - 3" shorter than the man, so it's certainly a factor.

Additionally you see a general increase in height in populations with decent nutrition over time which is arguably due to sexual selection.

Explain to me the 'TALL, dark, handsome' cliche?

There's plenty of evidence that height is a thing. As I said before, it's not 100%, but the fact it's a big factor is undeniable. It's not everything, but it's a massive factor, even if other factors can compensate to some degree.

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